sheldonm Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Does anyone have experience LISTENING to Dexer Gordon while nodding out on smack? I have listened to Dexter while falling down drunk from bourbon, but was wondering if anyone would like to share some impressions of Dex's playing after shooting herion. Allan, you were falling down drunk or Dex was......I'm confused???? m~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 caffine and nicotine are more addictive than heroin, im not surprised that you responded to my comments with sillyness................................. Dude, coffee is more addictive than herion? Do you have some research to back that up? It's been difficult for me to not respond with some silliness. There is ample bait. I'll restate my position at this point that Allen and I feel entirely differently about the quality of Dexter Gordon's playing, but I'm not feeling in any way offended or threatened by our difference of opinion and I've been happy to read the palate of interpretations. Went back and listened through my Dex collection to see if maybe it cheapened it for me...it didn't, they still make my desert island overnight bag. Headed back to the kitchen for a cup of joe or some sweet relief from the needle...I'll decide when I get there if I don't stop on the way for some cigarettes. i've made an assertion, that caffine and nicotine(especially when combined)is more addicting than heroin, up to you to refute that assertion........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Nicotine, yes. Caffine, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnagrandy Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 I recently got addicted to medium-level dosage "hospital heroin" (Dilaudid) in the months following surgery. Coming off it abruptly was tough. I don't think nicotine or caffeine can compare. I was going out and walking miles in the middle of the night. Interesting medical fact: what the specialist told me was that people almost never die going cold turkey on opiate addictions (and that's why they didn't taper me down). What people can and do die of, though, is going cold turkey on alcoholic-level alcohol consumption (~10+ drinks/day). Very interesting to me. Maybe that's why alcohol is the most dangerous of all. Alcoholics try to stop, but the jones is so easy to satisfy, few ever get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 (edited) i've made an assertion, that caffine and nicotine(especially when combined)is more addicting than heroin, up to you to refute that assertion........... And earlier Allan made the assertation that he felt drugs affected Dex's playing and you, rather than refuting that, asked him to prove it. So it seems that pattern is that one must provide proof for their opinions on music, if they are opposing, but can fling medical claims around willie-nillie and the burdon of proof is on others to dispute. Fortunately, we had someone else share their personal experience that I think clearly put that one to bed. Besides I don't think the point as it related to music (we were talking about music, remember) was the power of the addiction, but the destructiveness. I don't think anyone (maybe I'm wrong) would suggest that caffine was a more destructive drug than heroin. I'm still amazed with the restraint he showed when you implied that he was a racist because he didn't like the same music as you. I would have gone ape-shit over that, but maybe you two have a history. Edited January 9, 2006 by TroyK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 (edited) i've made an assertion, that caffine and nicotine(especially when combined)is more addicting than heroin, up to you to refute that assertion........... And earlier Allan made the assertation that he felt drugs affected Dex's playing and you, rather than refuting that, asked him to prove it. So it seems that pattern is that one must provide proof for their opinions on music, if they are opposing, but can fling medical claims around willie-nillie and the burdon of proof is on others to dispute. Fortunately, we had someone else share their personal experience that I think clearly put that one to bed. Besides I don't think the point as it related to music (we were talking about music, remember) was the power of the addiction, but the destructiveness. I don't think anyone (maybe I'm wrong) would suggest that caffine was a more destructive drug than heroin. I'm still amazed with the restraint he showed when you implied that he was a racist because he didn't like the same music as you. I would have gone ape-shit over that, but maybe you two have a history. allenlowe and I don't have a history and he didn't go "ape-shit" because there was no implication of racisim. before I accuse you of misinterpreting what you read, i suggest you re-read my posts on this subject............... Edited January 9, 2006 by mrjazzman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 wait - I thought Dexter Gordon was white - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 (edited) caffine and nicotine are more addictive than heroin, im not surprised that you responded to my comments with sillyness................................. Dude, coffee is more addictive than herion? Do you have some research to back that up? It's been difficult for me to not respond with some silliness. There is ample bait. I'll restate my position at this point that Allen and I feel entirely differently about the quality of Dexter Gordon's playing, but I'm not feeling in any way offended or threatened by our difference of opinion and I've been happy to read the palate of interpretations. Went back and listened through my Dex collection to see if maybe it cheapened it for me...it didn't, they still make my desert island overnight bag. Headed back to the kitchen for a cup of joe or some sweet relief from the needle...I'll decide when I get there if I don't stop on the way for some cigarettes. first of all, im too old to be called "dude". second, you agree with me, "Allen and I feel entirely differently about the quality of Dexter Gordon's playing", third, the medical consensus says that nicotine is more addictive than heroin(jsngry says not caffine, I'll go with that), fourth, yes i was slightly offended by his comments re: his interview with Dex(read them for yourself), not the FACT that heroin influenced his playing, because as i've previously stated, everybody knew he used smack but most of us fans didn't care, didn't he know he was interviewing a heroin addict? what kind of responses did he expect from someone who used heroin most of his adult life. and for the life of me, i can't figure out where you got this racist stuff from,only an ignorant or unintelligent person would imply that someone is racist based on a few comments about a jazz musician and Im neither ignorant or unintelligent. have a happy new year............ Edited January 9, 2006 by mrjazzman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Mr. Jazzman - what is going on here? Some benzadrene in your ovaltine? How can I keep up with your eloquent indictments of my opinions and your perceptive observations - yes, I must be on drugs or something. And don't talk about Art Pepper: I met Art Pepper, I knew Art Pepper - and you, sir, are NO Art Pepper - Excuse me, maybe Pepper's heroin was whiter than Dex's........... This is what I must have "misinterpreted". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 yikes, I missed that too - dumbass stuff, worth ignoring - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 and actually, I spent some time with Pepper in the middle 1970s - and his drug of choice was cocaine; he was on methadone also, and probably not using heroine - though he used just about anything else he could get his hands on - probably much like Dexter - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 from personal and second hand experience-drugs affect musicians and their creative processes differently depending on how the drugs have been integrated into the playing experience. if you start off your musical education under the influences of your drugs of choice you will be alright and being high and being creative will be intergrated but if you start on the music sober and the drugs come later, then you have not intergrated being high and being creative properly and the music will suffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Mr. Jazzman - what is going on here? Some benzadrene in your ovaltine? How can I keep up with your eloquent indictments of my opinions and your perceptive observations - yes, I must be on drugs or something. And don't talk about Art Pepper: I met Art Pepper, I knew Art Pepper - and you, sir, are NO Art Pepper - Excuse me, maybe Pepper's heroin was whiter than Dex's........... This is what I must have "misinterpreted". that comment was not meant to have racial overtones............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 from personal and second hand experience-drugs affect musicians and their creative processes differently depending on how the drugs have been integrated into the playing experience. if you start off your musical education under the influences of your drugs of choice you will be alright and being high and being creative will be intergrated but if you start on the music sober and the drugs come later, then you have not intergrated being high and being creative properly and the music will suffer. I have no proof, but i believe dex started using and playing at about the same time, so your comment makes sense to me........................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Mr. Jazzman - what is going on here? Some benzadrene in your ovaltine? How can I keep up with your eloquent indictments of my opinions and your perceptive observations - yes, I must be on drugs or something. And don't talk about Art Pepper: I met Art Pepper, I knew Art Pepper - and you, sir, are NO Art Pepper - Excuse me, maybe Pepper's heroin was whiter than Dex's........... This is what I must have "misinterpreted". that comment was not meant to have racial overtones............ My apologies, then for thinking that you had resorted so such a cheap debate trick as attacking the character of the person with whom you are debating rather than debating the issue. For my education, can you please clarify what this comment was intending to imply? I don't know very much about herion, maybe it was a technical comment on the type they used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 wait - I thought Dexter Gordon was white - Once again, that's Ruth Gordon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 I think it was a joke. . .playing on the purity of the powder. But. . . what do I know about that stuff. Hey anyone want to speculate on how Dexter's final decade or decade and a half would have been if he hadn't been an expatriot those years? Do you think he would have had to sharpen and tighten to keep eveb with or ahead of the pack with the diminishing market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 gotcha - I always confuse the two - after all, both acted in movies - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Mr. Jazzman - what is going on here? Some benzadrene in your ovaltine? How can I keep up with your eloquent indictments of my opinions and your perceptive observations - yes, I must be on drugs or something. And don't talk about Art Pepper: I met Art Pepper, I knew Art Pepper - and you, sir, are NO Art Pepper - Excuse me, maybe Pepper's heroin was whiter than Dex's........... This is what I must have "misinterpreted". that comment was not meant to have racial overtones............ My apologies, then for thinking that you had resorted so such a cheap debate trick as attacking the character of the person with whom you are debating rather than debating the issue. For my education, can you please clarify what this comment was intending to imply? I don't know very much about herion, maybe it was a technical comment on the type they used? jazzbo answered that for me.................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 (edited) I hear the effects of drug use all over his playing - I see his behind-the-beat phrasing as a kind of self-compensation, adjusting to the limitations (and I do see them as limitations) and confusions enforced by his drug use - and as I matter of fact I find most of his playing, largely due to this, as dull and uninspired - though there are, as I mentioned, nice spurts of energy and he gets a nice sound out of the horn. this is what i object to or maybe i should say disagree with because i believe it is flat out wrong, it's not self-compensation, his behind the beat playing is just a matter of style, imo your statements are full of frustrating contradictions, how can you be "dull and uninspired" and at the same time "gets a nice sound out of the horn" and there are other contradictions............... Edited January 9, 2006 by mrjazzman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Hey anyone want to speculate on how Dexter's final decade or decade and a half would have been if he hadn't been an expatriot those years? Do you think he would have had to sharpen and tighten to keep eveb with or ahead of the pack with the diminishing market? If you mean what would've happened had he stayed in the states in the 60s & early 70s, my hunch is that he'd have died much sooner than he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 (edited) mrjazzman: behind the beat phrasing/drugs - who knows the cause and effect? I stand by my original and COMPLETE statement - maybe he heard things that way because of the substances he used, I don't know, but I see the whole thing as related, that his physical impairment clearly effected the way he played. I hear this, as I said, in the way he seems to be calling himself back to attention at certain points, as though he has drifted - and yes, one can have a very nice sound on the instrument and still be uninspired as a soloist - it's like having nice penmanship and still being a bad writer - or, as with yourself, good typing technique - Edited January 9, 2006 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 I did meet and interview him once, around 1979, and he was exactly like his playing - pause, phrase, pause phrase, slow phrase, drawl, sudden burst and than a looooong rest...nice guy, though - just a boring saxophonist - it's comments like these that i REALLY take offense to. i consider them to be belitteling and demeaning.......................and you still have not told us who for you is the opposite of dex, can you name some sax players who you feel are not boring and lethargic in their playing/personality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 not demeaning or belittling - just my opinion on his playing - there are many saxophonists I like - stylistically, from that school; I will name a few - Gene Ammons, Lester Young (of course), Nick Nicholas, Paul Quinnichette, Wardell Gray, non-saxophonist Dickey Wells (for behind-the-beat phrasing), Percy France, Dick Wilson, Earl Warren, Benny Carter (the last two just to name some oldtimers on another horn), Bobby Jones (the one who played with Red Nichols in the 1940s), Bud Freeman, Frankie Trumbauer (c-melody), Irving Fazola and Rod Cless (clarinets), Prez on clarinet - give me time and I'll come up with more - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 mrjazzman: behind the beat phrasing/drugs - who knows the cause and effect? I stand by my original and COMPLETE statement - maybe he heard things that way because of the substances he used, I don't know, but I see the whole thing as related, that his physical impairment clearly effected the way he played. I hear this, as I said, in the way he seems to be calling himself back to attention at certain points, as though he has drifted - and yes, one can have a very nice sound on the instrument and still be uninspired as a soloist - it's like having nice penmanship and still being a bad writer - or, as with yourself, good typing technique - is it just my typing technique or what im typing. I'm not aware of any other musical reference site on the net besides All Music Guide, if there is someone tell me what it is. I just counted approx. 80 titles under main albums and a slew of them under compilations. the majority of them have 4, 41/2 or 5 stars. i don't think Francis Wolf Alfred Lion(Blue Note), Don Schlitten Alan Bates Ozzie Cadena(Prestige), and Nils Winther(SteepleChase)would have kept recording this dull boring guy if the lp's/cd's were not selling. would you agree with that allenlowe........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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