Dexter Gordon

[Hot Ptah]

I saw Dexter several times in 1978--81. He always played quite well, with a great tone. I will say that some of his solos seemed to go on too long at times, and he would seem to "tread water" for a while until inspiration hit again. He would obviously drop quotes from other songs into his solos, not trying to disguise them as some artists do. His band was always very hot. Eddie Gladden swung his butt off every time.

One of the most exciting things I have ever seen live was at the 1978 Ann Arbor Jazz Festival. Johnny Griffin played a great set with his quartet, then Dexter played with George Cables, Rufus Reid and Eddie Gladden. Both groups hit a peak of energy and intensity. Then Johnny joined Dexter with Dexter's group. They played a scorching "Blues Up and Down" together which had the audience in the 2,000 seat auditorium screaming and stomping for a long time. It was magic. As the pandemonium finally wound down, Dexter said to the still hysterical crowd, "Thanks........thanks.......LOADS, folks!"

I saw Dexter that weekend at a "meet the artist" session at a record store. He was gracious and nice to everyone. A young man came up to him in an agitated state, and talked for quite a long time, a mile a minute, about how he wanted so badly to play jazz but had to play disco music to make ends meet, and how could he break out of that pattern and get to the point where he could just play the real jazz that he loved so much? When he finally finished this rant, Dexter looked at him silently for about a minute, then said in a raspy voice, "keep on swingin'." (That was it, no other advice).

I also talked to Dexter one time between sets, when he was playing quite well and speaking eloquently on the bandstand. He was so drunk that all he could manage was a gutteral moan in response to my comments. I wondered how he could function so well on the bandstand.

I do not think that his recordings have a noticeable drop off after 1974, as has been suggested by another poster. I think that "Stable Mable" on Steeplechase is one of his best ever, for example. There is very good playing on his Columbia albums too, in my opinion.

[Allan Songer]

I was at many of the Keystone Korner performances as well. I was a broke college kid and Todd used to backdoor me in for the 11 o'clock sets on a regular basis. I don't remember Dex being so loaded he couldn't play, but I have to tell you there were as many "off" nights as there were "on" nights. Wouldn't trade those memories for anything . . .

[Guest]

All part of the aural history of jazz. It was part of who Charlie Parker was, Billie Hollday. I don't think that many, if any, people could get away with that sort of thing now in jazz. THere are too many great players, the playing field has been leveled in a lot of ways. But, what great stories.

It just is what it is or at least it was what it was. I'm glad that the standards of professionalism for musicians his higher now and I'm glad that seemingly fewer of the greats are in that kind of trouble, but it's the history.

A lot of the great players today have masters and doctorate degrees. It's a totally differnet path than the heavies from back in the day took.

Thanks for sharing those stroies. I wish I had been there early and stayed late that night. I would not have regretted it. I wonder how those band members tell that story....

[CJ Shearn]

Despite all the talk about whether Dex's drug use impaired his playing, I just have to say I enjoy very much, the Mosaic Select box and "One Flight Up" especially "Tanya", beautiful playing.

[johnagrandy]

Thanks for that story John.

Welcome Back!

Hi Tom !

I probably should add a few things: Dex played well that night, not great, but quite well, especially on the ballads.

I saw Dex maybe 6 times at KK in 79,80,81 and I don't think he was ever much later than the club's usual 9:30-9:45PM start time, except for that one night.

One reason I prefer those days to today's scene though, is that it was WAY more unpredictable back then. Today, many jazz shows can be like a well-documented vacation package: you know pretty much what you're going to experience before you even get there. (For example: I see no reason to see Arturo Sandoval twice). Substance abuse is definitely not the way to go in life, but seems like it was almost an intrinsic part of the lives of the most of the really interesting musicians of the latter 20th and 21st centuries. Kurt Cobain is sort of a good example, except that for the time-period of Nirvana's earlier albums they were too broke to get into horse. And while I now despise Guns 'n Roses' music, reading about their massive booze, coke, and heroin abuse is fascinating. They had a chartered 707 (remodeled as a lounge) that they flew around the world in and basically they did speedballs the entire time up in the air. Slash drinking 2 5ths of Jack a day since his mid-teens ... his tongue stained totally black. Eddie VH waking up each day and drinking vodka non-stop, all through his twenties and thirties (and ultimately ending up with two hip replacements). Scott Weiland (Stone Temple Pilots, Velvet Revolver) might be the most interesting addict to keep an eye on in recent years. I mean it's sick and it's sad, but it's fascinating nonetheless. I guess I'm willing to admit that I'm more interested by these type of musicians than pure and clean musicians like Wynton. (Not to say that I think the world should work this way.)

Edited January 5, 2006 by johnagrandy

[Larry Kart]

About Dexter and the "lifestyle," Joe Segal told me once that Dexter seemed to have a knack (probably Joe was talking mostly about the old days) for getting busted when he was carrying way more often than were a whole lot of other guys -- e.g. Bird, who according to Joe seemed to have a magical shield that allowed him to slide through or past almost all such situations unscathed (at least in terms of John Law).

[Lazaro Vega]

Isn't it strange that when Dexter tosses in "The Mexican Hat Dance," "Off to the Races" or any of a number of melodic quotes from other tunes he's judged as coasting yet when Sonny Rollins does it it's viewed as a window into the deep well of his musical knowledge and understanding?

[Guest]

Interesting and I see your point.

However, there are some really exciting jazz musicians on the scene now. I'm never disappointed when I see Dave Kakawski (sp?). He's seriously in the moment and plays differnetly depending on who he's playing with. Ingrid Jensen live is a trip, really capativating, great musician, exciting to see her ideas develop. Charnatt Moffit, blew my mind when I saw him play this year. I see some great local shows at late night sessions here in Seattle. Stuff that would have been good at any time in any place. I haven't personally drug tested all of these people and don't care too, but certainly I don't see abuse patterns like P.C., Dex and the others we've talked about. I don't think that the drugs made the music or the scene better. People have proven that they can play great and it can be a good hang without destroying their lives.

When I was in New York last year we caught a couple of shows at the more marquee venues and I agree. I'm glad we did it, but it's not jazz my way and not worth the price unless it's your one chance to see your hero. Big cover, force your minimum on you. Play five songs and take a break while they hit everyone up for a new cover for the second set or clear them out. However, some good hanging out and playing going on at places like Kavahaz. Just got to get below the surface.

Troy

Hi Tom !

I probably should add a few things: Dex played well that night, not great, but quite well, especially on the ballads.

I saw Dex maybe 6 times at KK in 79,80,81 and I don't think he was ever much later than the club's usual 9:30-9:45PM start time, except for that one night.

One reason I prefer those days to today's scene though, is that it was WAY more unpredictable back then. Today, many jazz shows can be like a well-documented vacation package: you know pretty much what you're going to experience before you even get there. (For example: I see no reason to see Arturo Sandoval twice). Substance abuse is definitely not the way to go in life, but seems like it was almost an intrinsic part of the lives of the most of the really interesting musicians of the latter 20th and 21st centuries. Kurt Cobain is sort of a good example, except that for the time-period of Nirvana's earlier albums they were too broke to get into horse. And while I now despise Guns 'n Roses' music, reading about their massive booze, coke, and heroin abuse is fascinating. They had a chartered 707 (remodeled as a lounge) that they flew around the world in and basically they did speedballs the entire time up in the air. Slash drinking 2 5ths of Jack a day since his mid-teens ... his tongue stained totally black. Eddie VH waking up each day and drinking vodka non-stop, all through his twenties and thirties (and ultimately ending up with two hip replacements). Scott Weiland (Stone Temple Pilots, Velvet Revolver) might be the most interesting addict to keep an eye on in recent years. I mean it's sick and it's sad, but it's fascinating nonetheless. I guess I'm willing to admit that I'm more interested by these type of musicians than pure and clean musicians like Wynton. (Not to say that I think the world should work this way.)

[Hot Ptah]

Isn't it strange that when Dexter tosses in "The Mexican Hat Dance," "Off to the Races" or any of a number of melodic quotes from other tunes he's judged as coasting yet when Sonny Rollins does it it's viewed as a window into the deep well of his musical knowledge and understanding?

I see your point. My opinion only--Sonny tends to drop fragments of quotes into fevered improvisations in which the sparks are flying and you can hardly keep up with the quotes. When I saw Dexter, the quoted melodies were played more entirely, slowly, during a part of a solo in which not all that much was happening for the moment--the quotes stood out very vividly. Often people would audibly chuckle when Dexter played them. It's a matter of personal taste, but I thought that sometimes Dexter's use of quotes was different from that of many other musicians. Maybe others had different experiences with his playing.

I hasten to add that I love his music and that the quotes did not significantly detract from the performances, for me.

[Jim R]

When Dexter stayed with a quote for an extended period of time, he also tended to play it upside down and backwards, repeating figures cyclically in different keys, and wrung the shit out of it harmonically and rhymically. Sure, he probably overplayed some of them ("Mona Lisa", "I Hear Music", etc etc), but to me it's always worth letting the more mundane quotes slide by while I wait for the more masterful stuff. I also get the feeling that I recognize most of the tunes Dexter quoted. That's not to say he never went obscure, but comparing Dexter to say Paul Desmond, I feel like it's easier to ride along without feeling like some references are going over my head. I love Desmond too, btw, and I think that along with Bird and Dexter and a few others, he deserves to be mentioned with the elite in this category.

[marcello]

I'm never disappointed when I see Dave Kakawski (sp?). He's seriously in the moment and plays differnetly depending on who he's playing with.

Dave Kikoski a seriously bad MF!

One of the very best in NYC for a long time.

[mrjazzman]

Chuck - Did you see at this time in Chicago?

(From my tape collection)

Dexter Gordon

Just Jazz TV Chicago, ILL.

1971

1. Band Introductions 1:19

2. Love For Sale 9:04

3. Sticky Wicket 5:49

4. The Shadow Of Your Smile 6:20

5. Rhythm A Ning 5:23

6. Station Outro 0:58

Dexter Gordon - Tenor

John Young - Piano

Rufus Reid - Bass

Wilbur Campbell - Drums

This was from late July 1970. Dexter was in Chicago to play with Jug and Byas for a Joe Segal event. The Gordon/Ammons portions were recorded for Prestige. I helped with the sessions. I was not involved with the TV shows made that week and was not in the studio.

Chuck, that tape from the '71 gig in Chicago, is it audio or video...........pm reply please.................

[Guest]

I'm never disappointed when I see Dave Kakawski (sp?). He's seriously in the moment and plays differnetly depending on who he's playing with.

Dave Kikoski a seriously bad MF!

One of the very best in NYC for a long time.

Yes! I'll see him every chance I get.

[mrjazzman]

I would highly recommend all of the SteepleChase titles with the exception of one, "More Than You Know", avoid that one like the plague.

Why not just say it's with strings and let people judge for themselves? I like this record a lot - it's unique in the Dexter catalog, and the string writing is quite interesting.

No, I said it exactly like I wanted to say it

[AllenLowe]

I don't think so - your subtext reveals a great deal of love for that recording - so why not just come out and say it?

Edited January 6, 2006 by AllenLowe

[mrjazzman]

at the risk of appearing to be a troll - which I am not - I have to say I do not like Gordon's playing, even at its best - at that best he is a fine, average player with occasional fits of inventive energy. At its usual he is a good player clearly impaired to the point of playing well but so blocked by drugs that he plays right on the money and that's all. Just my opinion boys - feel free to ignore and move on -

Almost impossible to ignore such a ridiculous, convoluted, contradictory statement...............

[mrjazzman]

Obviously the Blue Note Mosaic like box set is a must. Go is of course my favorite. The SteepleChase material is very nice, especially the Dexter in Radioland series, especially Love for Sale.

Besides the MPS A Day in Copenhagen, which is truly excellent, True Blue on Xanadu if really fine. A rare one is Dexter Goes to School.

One I wasn't particularly fond of was Dex and Ben Webster. Just didn't seem to mesh but it may be worthyof a re-listen.

Yes, it's hard to have too much Dex.

BTW, Dex's wife posted here once.

What does BTW mean.................

[mrjazzman]

I had a few Dex CDs before but this year I seriously dug into the man's music- ebayed me the Blue Note box and stumbled a across a sw-weet cheap used copy of the Prestige box.

Man oh man this cat just has style!

Very melodic (usually) and things just flow with a little kick for good measure when he's hot.

The only thing I don't like is that he quotes too much.

He did quote a lot but it wasn't because he would run out of ideas, he just liked to quote. I don't have a problem with it......

[mrjazzman]

just a question - does anybody else seem to notice, in his playing, the effect of drug use? I hear it everywhere - for better or for worse, of course, depending on your perspective -

Why must you dwell on what made him sound the way he did, you either like his sound/playing or you don't, and, Allen, IF you drink alcohol/coffee or somke cigarettes(I know you wouldn't be smoking anygthing else)go to the DRUG store when you're not feeling well, you'd better stop as drugs, especially the legal ones, are not good for you................ Edited January 6, 2006 by mrjazzman

[mrjazzman]

I did meet and interview him once, around 1979, and he was exactly like his playing - pause, phrase, pause phrase, slow phrase, drawl, sudden burst and than a looooong rest...nice guy, though - just a boring saxophonist -

Boring.......didn't someone once say "it takes one to know one".................

[mrjazzman]

I am responding, KH , to specific questions about my opinion - and I am giving substance to that opinion - so stop trolling on my posts - ironic isn't it?

as someone previously stated, take your turds from the punch bowl to the toilet bowl where they and you belong. substance, what substance. using your tortured logic, you must not like Art Pepper either

[mrjazzman]

Of all the great recordings he made, my favorite Dexter solo is on, of all things, Herbie Hancock's first Blue Note session, TAKIN' OFF. Specifically, I'm referring to Dexter's extended, cohesive and moving solo on "The Maze". I don't know how any jazz saxophone lover can listen to that solo and 1) not dig it &/or 2) think it's just the work of an "average" saxophonist.

MartyJazz, I could not have said it better myself.............

[mrjazzman]

Thanks a lot for the various opinions expressed in the thread. Personally, I like LTD very much and have been listening to his stuff lately.

1. His contribution as the man who put bebop on tenor was not mentioned. Maybe Allen could bring names of lesser known tenorists, who contributed not less than him, but still, his role in the bebop revolution can't be underestimated.

2. What about his influence on Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane and the backward influence they had on him?

3. His early recordings, from the 40s. I think that he played quite differently. You can almost mistake him with Lester Young. What about his collaborations with Wardell Grey, and his many other tenor battles. The early years with Lionel Hampton and Earl Hines?

4. I can't understand the thing about "hearing the drugs in his playing". How can you tell he was using drugs before each and every session? Why it doesn't bother you with Charlie Parker, Chet Baker or Miles?

5. I like his Blue Note records most of all. Also have warm feelings to "Homecoming" with Woody Shaw.

6. He is playing a lot behind the beat. This is one of the most amazing things in his playing and I believe that's what creates his swing and gives people pleasure in listening to him. As Barak (White Lightening) told me once, his tendency to play behind the beat grew and became more sophisticated as the years passed.

7. For some reason I prefer hearing him in a quintet with a trumpet player.

8. I like his sound and think he was great with sound dynamics while singing his phrases. His sound thickened with the years.

9. He quotes often, bit I like it. Maybe he could quote less "Mona Lisa" in his 70s and 80s recordings.

10. Maybe I could agree with Allen about his "behind the beat playing" as coming from technical limitations or even drug use. But I don't think it's bad. Usually if one can make his weakness a source of power he is a good jazz player, or a woman.

Although it didn't happen often, I too like LTD with a trumpet player, check out "Generations" and "Takin' Off'' with Freddie Hubbard and an obscure Blue Note set "Landslide" with Tommy Turrentine and Dave Burns. My dad played trumpet with Dave Burns in Dizzy Gillespie's band of the late 40's

[marcello]

Chuck - Did you see at this time in Chicago?

(From my tape collection)

Dexter Gordon

Just Jazz TV Chicago, ILL.

1971

1. Band Introductions 1:19

2. Love For Sale 9:04

3. Sticky Wicket 5:49

4. The Shadow Of Your Smile 6:20

5. Rhythm A Ning 5:23

6. Station Outro 0:58

Dexter Gordon - Tenor

John Young - Piano

Rufus Reid - Bass

Wilbur Campbell - Drums

This was from late July 1970. Dexter was in Chicago to play with Jug and Byas for a Joe Segal event. The Gordon/Ammons portions were recorded for Prestige. I helped with the sessions. I was not involved with the TV shows made that week and was not in the studio.

Chuck, that tape from the '71 gig in Chicago, is it audio or video...........pm reply please.................

As I said in a previous post I have that on audio tape, transferred to CDR, along with the Don Byas from the same series.

[Guest]

at the risk of appearing to be a troll - which I am not - I have to say I do not like Gordon's playing, even at its best - at that best he is a fine, average player with occasional fits of inventive energy. At its usual he is a good player clearly impaired to the point of playing well but so blocked by drugs that he plays right on the money and that's all. Just my opinion boys - feel free to ignore and move on -

Almost impossible to ignore such a ridiculous, convoluted, contradictory statement...............

Is it just me or did we stop argueing about this, like...some time last year? Is there a tape delay or something that I'm unaware of?