NEW, NEVER HEARD, DIZZY & BIRD FROM UPTOWN

[Swinging Swede]

from www.jazzmessengers.com:

ARTIST: CHARLIE PARKER

TITLE: TOWN HALL CONCERT 1945

LABEL: DEFINITIVE

The complete New York show and a large corpus of rare radio and livew 1945-46 recordings of Bird and Diz playing together, including a previously unreleased broadcast from Billy Berg's in 1945.

These live recordings, some captured live from concerts, some recorded for radio shows, are taken during that fundamental year of 1945 in which they formed their first combo and in the early months of 1946. The great majority of them were discovered very recently. This is the case of the concert at Town Hall, found not many years ago in unnamed acetates, and of the Billy Berg's radio broadcast we issue here for the first time ever.

Total time: 75:00 mins.

THE CONCERT: With Don Byas, Al Haig, Curley Russell, Max Roach, Sidney Catlett. Recorded on Friday Evening, Town Hall, New York City, June 22, 1945. 1. Intro., 2. Be-Bop, 3. A Night In Tunisia, 4. Groovin' High, 5. Salt Peanuts, 6. Hot House, 7. 52nd Street Theme.

10 BONUS TRACKS: With Lucky Thompson, Al Haig, Milt Jackson, Ray Brown & Stan Levey, among others. Recorded live in Los Angeles, New York and Philadelphia, 1945-46. 8. Groovin' High, 9. Shaw 'Nuff, 10. Dizzy Atmosphere, 11. Salt Peanuts, 12. Lover Come Back To Me, 13. Sweet Georgia Brown, 14. I Waited For You, 15. How High The Moon, 16. 52nd Street Theme, 17. Blue N' Boogie.

[Swinging Swede]

I checked with Peter Losin's excellent Charlie Parker sessionography, and think the bonus tracks are from the dates below. If so, there are two previously unissued tracks, both in bad sound, from the December 17, 1945 date. Or three, if you don't count the third track that only was on one of the late "unofficial" Philologys, which I think were sold on CD-Rs.

8. Groovin' High,

9. Shaw 'Nuff,

10. Dizzy Atmosphere,

December 1945

CD: Stash STCD 535, Media 7 MJCD 121, Philology Volume 44 (W 875)

11. Salt Peanuts,

January 24, 1946

CD: Philology Volume 14 (W 844), Volume 44 (W 875), Media 7 MJCD 121

12. Lover Come Back To Me

February 4, 1946

CD: Bird Box Volume 1, Stash STCD 535, Media 7 MJCD 121, Philology Volume 26 (Revised) (W 857)

13. Sweet Georgia Brown,

May 30, 1945 (?)

CD: Stash STCD 535, Media 7 MJCD 113, Philology Volume 26 (Revised) (W 857), Volume 44 (W 875)

14. I Waited For You,

15. How High The Moon,

16. 52nd Street Theme,

December 17, 1945 (”Quality is very poor throughout”)

14: CD: Philology Volume 62 (W 893)

15-16: previously unissued!

17. Blue N' Boogie.

June 5, 1945

CD: Philology Volume 17 (W 847), Volume 44 (W 875), Media 7 MJCD 113

[Alexander Hawkins]

When will you EU dumb fucks wise up. Create something on your own, and if you can't, do not sell it in the USA.

What I have just posted will not register with 80% of you, oh well.......

is that well reasoned comment directed at all EU citizens or just those in charge of Definitive et al.

Quite...

Seems fairly clear that 'EU' is redundant to the 'dumb fucks' where we're talking about the morality of this.

[Alexander Hawkins]

And - please no-one misunderstand me, I'm emphatically NOT defending releases like this, much less the EU - much of this is misdirected as it applies to firms from Andorra.

Andorra is NOT in the EU.

[ejp626]

here's the ethical question - it is one thing to duplicate certain performances in a seperate release where certain historical periods may coincide. It is ANOTHER to take a project from A-Z and merely reproduce it as your own work or with another cover - it's like if I re-published Shakespeare (hey that's public domain, isn't it?) and promoted it as my own work -

There are too many concepts going on here. You certainly cannot publish Shakespeare and call it something you wrote. You almost certainly could pick a specific edition and make some strategic alterations and publish that as Shakespeare as edited by A. Lowe. Indeed, most of the major publishers do this very thing. They all have currently in print or in the past have printed complete runs of Dickens, Jane Austen, the Brontes, etc. Why this is so shocking is beyond me. It's been going on since the invention of the printing press.

I'll just add that telling DG that they should be ashamed of themselves is the fastest way to get branded as a crank and completely ignored in the future.

[Claude]

When will you EU dumb fucks wise up. Create something on your own, and if you can't, do not sell it in the USA.

What I have just posted will not register with 80% of you, oh well.......

Thank God for the ethical USA companies that license and market quality products, not CDR's made in a college dorm room. LMAO

To all of those at Uptown, I'm ashamed I could not do more to stop these EU criminals and wannabees.

Wolff,

This Definitive release is illegal in the US. It can be stopped at the US border.

I don't know who is importing these CDs in the US (wholesalers or the CD stores themselves), but it's the well known US stores (including CD Universe and Tower records) that are selling them. They are doing it because they can be quite sure that nobody does anything about it.

And - please no-one misunderstand me, I'm emphatically NOT defending releases like this, much less the EU - much of this is misdirected as it applies to firms from Andorra.

Andorra is NOT in the EU.

That is actually irrelevant since the Definitive CDs are being released in conformity with EU law (unlike many Lonehill or Gambit releases). Definitive doesn't need to "hide" in Andorra for copyright reasons.

I generally support the 50 year copyright duration rule which was also applied in the US until the 1990s, though it is very unfortunate in this case where the material was unearthed and released so recently.

But before blaming it on the EU, remember that if this CD had contained previously unreleased 1935 recordings by Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong or Billie Holiday, the recordings (70 years old) could be copied by US public domain labels as well.

I don't think the 20 year difference in copyright duration allows someone to qualify one continent as "dumb fucks" and the other as "ethical".

Edited February 26, 2006 by Claude

[ejp626]

I don't think the 20 year difference in copyright duration allows someone to qualify one continent as "dumb fucks" and the other as "ethical".

According to my way of thinking, corporations pushing for (and Congress gladly acceding to) a massive, retroactive increase in copyright is far more unethical than operating within the 50 yr EU limits. That said, I still spend my money with the original rights-holding labels when that is an option.

Edited February 26, 2006 by ejp626

[Mr. Gone]

How do these Mother Fuckers sleep at night. Just a bunch of pricks making CDR's and laughing all the way to the bank. And, the support these outfits receive on this board makes me puke.

When will you EU dumb fucks wise up. Create something on your own, and if you can't, do not sell it in the USA.

What I have just posted will not register with 80% of you, oh well.......

Thank God for the ethical USA companies that license and market quality products, not CDR's made in a college dorm room. LMAO

To all of those at Uptown, I'm ashamed I could not do more to stop these EU criminals and wannabees.

Alcohol?

[brownie]

And - please no-one misunderstand me, I'm emphatically NOT defending releases like this, much less the EU - much of this is misdirected as it applies to firms from Andorra.

Andorra is NOT in the EU.

'Definitive'ly. Of all France's neighboring countries, Andorra and Switzerland are the only two countries - both non-EU - that still have custom officers checking all incoming and outgoing visitors. And the Andorran custon officers are very strict on what you carry... unless you have those Andorran released records along

Edited February 26, 2006 by brownie

[Chalupa]

When will you EU dumb fucks wise up. Create something on your own, and if you can't, do not sell it in the USA.

What I have just posted will not register with 80% of you, oh well.......

Thank God for the ethical USA companies that license and market quality products, not CDR's made in a college dorm room. LMAO

To all of those at Uptown, I'm ashamed I could not do more to stop these EU criminals and wannabees.

Wolff,

This Definitive release is illegal in the US. It can be stopped at the US border.

I don't know who is importing these CDs in the US (wholesalers or the CD stores themselves), but it's the well known US stores (including CD Universe and Tower records) that are selling them. They are doing it because they can be quite sure that nobody does anything about it.

The sad fact of the matter is that as long as customers in the USA keep buying these cds manufacturers in the EU and else where will keep making them.

[Alexander Hawkins]

When will you EU dumb fucks wise up. Create something on your own, and if you can't, do not sell it in the USA.

What I have just posted will not register with 80% of you, oh well.......

Thank God for the ethical USA companies that license and market quality products, not CDR's made in a college dorm room. LMAO

To all of those at Uptown, I'm ashamed I could not do more to stop these EU criminals and wannabees.

Wolff,

This Definitive release is illegal in the US. It can be stopped at the US border.

I don't know who is importing these CDs in the US (wholesalers or the CD stores themselves), but it's the well known US stores (including CD Universe and Tower records) that are selling them. They are doing it because they can be quite sure that nobody does anything about it.

And - please no-one misunderstand me, I'm emphatically NOT defending releases like this, much less the EU - much of this is misdirected as it applies to firms from Andorra.

Andorra is NOT in the EU.

That is actually irrelevant since the Definitive CDs are being released in conformity with EU law (unlike many Lonehill or Gambit releases). Definitive doesn't need to "hide" in Andorra for copyright reasons.

...

I agree it's irrelevant (although I confess I don't know anything of the differences between e.g. Lonehill and Definitive) - I was simply trying to avoid the 'lumping-in' of all these issues with the EU

Edited February 26, 2006 by Red

[Chuck Nessa]

I always had the suspicion Disconforme used the Andorran address to avoid music publishing fees. Does anyone have real information on the term of "written" copyrights in Andorra?

[Claude]

Andorra is a developping country when it comes to intellectual property protection. They are in the process of adapting their laws to international standards. They are not member of the EU, not member of WTO but they recently ratified the basic WIPO conventions (Berne convention on copyright).

Their copyright law from 1999 can be read here: http://portal.unesco.org/culture/en/ev.php...ECTION=201.html

The durations are the same as the european standard: 70 years after the death of the author for copyrights (compositions), 50 years after the recording for neighbouring rights (performer's rights on recordings).

[Chuck Nessa]

But, is there an infrastructure for enforcement and collection?

[Fer Urbina]

The Definitive release to be out soon seems to include additional material (from other dates)...

CHARLIE PARKER - DIZZY GILLESPIE Town Hall Concert, New York City, June 22, 1945

75 minutos. Incluye 10 temas extras grabados en la radio y en directo. Tras la magnífica edición en Uptown, aparecen nuevas cintas para este concierto...

At least, they acknowledge the source of their Town Hall concert theft

Brownie, none of the blurbs I've seen from Definitive mention Uptown at all. They do praise the recent discovery, as well as the five-star rating in Downbeat, but they do not mention Uptown at all. Your quote mentioning Uptown looks taken from Spanish website Tomajazz.

That is actually irrelevant since the Definitive CDs are being released in conformity with EU law (unlike many Lonehill or Gambit releases). Definitive doesn't need to "hide" in Andorra for copyright reasons.

Why do they have an Andorran address, then? From the business point of view, you don't just set up shop in Andorra, in the middle of the Pyrenees, with poor communications, not very good roads... what's the incentive?

F

[Chuck Nessa]

Why do they have an Andorran address, then? From the business point of view, you don't just set up shop in Andorra, in the middle of the Pyrenees, with poor communications, not very good roads... what's the incentive?

F

[Chuck Nessa]

This Definitive release is illegal in the US. It can be stopped at the US border.

Please show this ignorant fellow how this can be done. The way Uptown tried (for the Mingus cd) was a series of "legal" letters from lawyers to retail establishments and the "distributors" we could track down. The legal costs were about equal to the "profit" one would expect from a very"successful" historical release. Maybe we should just let the US justice dept know someone is sending in cds we don't want here 'cause of unfair competition. Then they'd protect us. Right?

I guarantee Uptown spent more money trying to protect their work/investment on the Mingus project than Jazz Factory spent on their entire product.

Get a grip and show me the way to go home.

Do you have any idea how many worthwhile projects are "on hold" because of this crap?

[Claude]

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/import/commerci...nforcement/ipr/

[Chuck Nessa]

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/import/commerci...nforcement/ipr/

Now where's the finger!

[wolff]

How do these Mother Fuckers sleep at night. Just a bunch of pricks making CDR's and laughing all the way to the bank. And, the support these outfits receive on this board makes me puke.

When will you EU dumb fucks wise up. Create something on your own, and if you can't, do not sell it in the USA.

What I have just posted will not register with 80% of you, oh well.......

Thank God for the ethical USA companies that license and market quality products, not CDR's made in a college dorm room. LMAO

To all of those at Uptown, I'm ashamed I could not do more to stop these EU criminals and wannabees.

Alcohol?

Good call....

[brownie]

Brownie, none of the blurbs I've seen from Definitive mention Uptown at all. They do praise the recent discovery, as well as the five-star rating in Downbeat, but they do not mention Uptown at all. Your quote mentioning Uptown looks taken from Spanish website Tomajazz.

[

Fer, correct!

I check the Tomajazz site from time to time to see what is going to be published on the other side of the Pyreneans. Wish my spanish was better so that I could read more of this interesting website!

Or maybe I should start to learn some Andorran

[king ubu]

This Definitive release is illegal in the US. It can be stopped at the US border.

Please show this ignorant fellow how this can be done. The way Uptown tried (for the Mingus cd) was a series of "legal" letters from lawyers to retail establishments and the "distributors" we could track down. The legal costs were about equal to the "profit" one would expect from a very"successful" historical release. Maybe we should just let the US justice dept know someone is sending in cds we don't want here 'cause of unfair competition. Then they'd protect us. Right?

I guarantee Uptown spent more money trying to protect their work/investment on the Mingus project than Jazz Factory spent on their entire product.

Get a grip and show me the way to go home.

Do you have any idea how many worthwhile projects are "on hold" because of this crap?

And now Sue sues you? Or rather Sunenblick? Pathetic mail in Downbeat... about how critics/reviewers give those bootleggers (Uptown, in this case...) legitimacy by telling everybody how great the music was... has Sue ever heard about the Definitive version? Probably to her it's all the same, yes?

[Fer Urbina]

I check the Tomajazz site from time to time to see what is going to be published on the other side of the Pyreneans. Wish my spanish was better so that I could read more of this interesting website!

Or maybe I should start to learn some Andorran

By total chance I saw the original Tomajazz webpage from three/four years ago, and what Pachi Tapiz (the administrator) has accomplished in that time is amazing for a Spanish site. Some of the things in it are pretty good. Top of that, his might well be the only Spanish site where you'll see a reference to Uptown at all.

About the impossibility of stopping this CDs at the US border, if it's a question of lobbying people I wish someone like Wynton Marsalis threw his weight on this issue ... or is this complete b.s.?

F

[Guest]

I purchased the original release of this music, as I have many other recordings,

based on the excellent recommendations of people on this board. Thanks to Jazzbo

and Claude, my Lee Wiley collection is almost complete.

Unfortunately my knowledge of geography is limited to the US and Southeast Asia

having spent 27 years in the Air Force in the far east. Prior to reading this thread,

I had no idea where Andorra is. I do now.

In between all the cussing, etc., I gleaned a general

idea of copyright laws, and a sense of what is considered piracy.

The afore mentioned Town Hall release is available for sale on Amazon and Caiman.

The general public really has no knowledge of what is legal or illegal when shoppng

for music. I saw a copy of The Complete Original Chet Baker Sings Sessions on the

CD Universe website and ordered it. Gambit...original album art and it sounds flat.

A 10 CD set ordered from Amazon...Benny Goodman Portrait on Past Perfect 24K Gold

Edition...sounds like fake stereo from the late 50s. The Made in Germany label was

taped over.

Perhaps you could post a list of which labels are 'boots' and which are not.

What about Proper and another label whose name escapes me at the moment, who

released the Louis Armstrong Hot 5s..JSP maybe. This way those of us who merely

enjoy good music sans micro details, could purchase it from legit labels.

I have another question. Are labels like Proper and Classics considered to be

boots since they are compilations? Or is it just blatant copies of albums?

[papsrus]

Whew ... I've managed to read (mostly) through this entire thread. Summary: There was a party; big release coming; wait, wait, wait, wait; what's all the fuss over 6 minutes?; IT'S HERE!; community orgasm-issimo; who's on drums?; how do you pronounce Gillespie?; Kaplan weighs in; Nessa's busy; sales skyrocket; illegal copiers spoil party.

As the last post suggested, perhaps a list of these bootleg labels would be helpful. Is there one somewhere? I guess I had an idea about JSP, but Chuck's comment about projects being put on hold hits home.

BTW, I played Town Hall tonight, twice. I was born on June 22 (a decade or so after this recording).

Edited October 16, 2008 by papsrus