clifford_thornton Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 Blue Note would never have found him salable. He didn't do one thing for long enough, except be Paul Bley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holy Ghost Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 6 hours ago, clifford_thornton said: Blue Note would never have found him salable. He didn't do one thing for long enough, except be Paul Bley. Yeah, maybe two records; Don Cherry, Cecil didn't ,make entire sense there either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 Cherry got 3! Pat Metheny called this "the shot heard around the world", and, uh...i think sound might have moved a little slower in those days, to get ALL the wat around the world, RCA being a little lax about keeping this easily available for a decade or 2-3, but yeah, once heard, never forgotten, Paul Bley here. There. And, of course, everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 If Bley had been on Blue Note, he could've made records with Sam Rivers and John Gilmore and Charles Tolliver and Woody Shaw. Or Jackie McLean and Tony Williams. Shame they didn't get Cecil and Cherry to boogaloo, seriously! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holy Ghost Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 7 hours ago, JSngry said: Cherry got 3! Pat Metheny called this "the shot heard around the world", and, uh...i think sound might have moved a little slower in those days, to get ALL the wat around the world, RCA being a little lax about keeping this easily available for a decade or 2-3, but yeah, once heard, never forgotten, Paul Bley here. There. And, of course, everywhere. Fair, but Where is Brooklyn was released a lot later. 26 minutes ago, danasgoodstuff said: If Bley had been on Blue Note, he could've made records with Sam Rivers and John Gilmore and Charles Tolliver and Woody Shaw. Or Jackie McLean and Tony Williams. Shame they didn't get Cecil and Cherry to boogaloo, seriously! Weird you bring these dudes up, can't really picture him in anything more than a trio setting. Like Barrage was weird, even uncomfortable, but I dug it, don't know if he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 as noted above, Bley played with all kinds of sax players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 Bley & Gilmore made one of the great records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 1 hour ago, JSngry said: Bley & Gilmore made one of the great records. Yup. History is what it is and who knows why Bley never recorded for Blue Note even as a sideman, but Alfred Lion certainly had an affinity for unique piano players. Maybe he just didn’t like Paul Bley. @clifford_thornton‘s “non-salable” doesn’t ring true to me either. They recorded 2 Cecil Taylor LPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon8 Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) At almost the very same time, Bley was recording Footloose! (with then Blue Note "regular" La Roca) and Turning Point (with Gilmore), while over on Blue Note Andrew Hill was recording Black Fire and Andrew!!! (with Gilmore). It think Footloose! in particular would've made for a stone cold Blue Note classic (no problem being it a stone cold Savoy classic, mind you). Would've been mighty fun to hear Bley with Jackie McLean and Woody Shaw... (and Joe Henderson & Billy Higgins, while we're at it) ! Edited March 28, 2018 by Simon8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 2 hours ago, Guy Berger said: Yup. History is what it is and who knows why Bley never recorded for Blue Note even as a sideman, but Alfred Lion certainly had an affinity for unique piano players. Maybe he just didn’t like Paul Bley. @clifford_thornton‘s “non-salable” doesn’t ring true to me either. They recorded 2 Cecil Taylor LPs. Yeah, Blue Note did record two Cecil Taylor LPs and they did pretty well (despite being oddly recorded). Cecil is a VERY different artist from Bley and I don't think they were after the same things, not even remotely. Cecil built a much more consistent arc -- I don't think that Bley's recordings, if you go from, say, the Mercury record to the Savoy to Barrage to Blood to Revenge -- these are really quite a zigzag. Bley did work with some amazing reed players, sure: Ornette, Gilmore, Pharoah, Ayler, Giuffre, Marshall Allen -- but trying to put him in an Andrew Hill-like situation just doesn't make sense. Also, Blue Note purposely didn't record white players that often, so... it's kind of a moot point. Not sure why Lion and Wolff are necessary to validate one's career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uli Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 4 hours ago, clifford_thornton said: Also, Blue Note purposely didn't record white players that often, so... Bley not white, Canadian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 True, Canadian and Jewish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 8 hours ago, clifford_thornton said: Not sure why Lion and Wolff are necessary to validate one's career. I'm not sure either. Perhaps that's only true here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Shearn Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 2 hours ago, paul secor said: I'm not sure either. Perhaps that's only true here. Agreed. As much as I love BN, there are so many other just as valid, worthy releases from other labels. Unfortunately I don't know Bley's playing all that well, but I really like the final album ECM released, "Play Blue", a lot, because I love how he can go inside and out at will in such a logical way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon8 Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) Oh, nobody ever said that Bley's career needed BN "validation". My original, plain and simple curiosity was just to see "how his impact/image would've been if, say, his 60's output had been made under one label" (instead of multiple, sometimes "confidential" labels), Blue Note being one of the evident major labels at the time. It could have been Riverside, or Columbia or or or... (for purely egotistical reasons, it would have given me access to remastered versions of Footloose! and Ramblin' , and just plain access to Blood [Fontana] and Mr. Joy [Limelight] On a unrelated note, always liked that picture of Bley in discussion Bill Evans and Ron Carter. Caption suggestions? Edited March 29, 2018 by Simon8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) I can read lips; he's saying: "F**K Blue Note." Edited March 29, 2018 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon8 Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) Edited March 29, 2018 by Simon8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 Mercury (owners of Limelight), Philips/Fontana, and International Polydor were all under one odd roof in the 1960s and early '70s, so technically he did six albums under that umbrella in short succession (although Touching was originally on Danish Debut, so the Fontana is a reissue). That said, the only one that received US distribution was Mr. Joy, though Arista/Freedom did reissue two of the Philips/Fontana/Polydor sessions. Ramblin' was originally done for GTA, an arm of RCA Italy, and that label folded so BYG put it out instead (and Red Record somehow reissued it later in the 70s). Bley did quite a few records for ECM, starting with two albums of archival recordings, and also a number for Soul Note and his own IAI imprint, which he co-ran with his wife, video artist Carol Goss. One of the ECMs and one of the IAIs were supposed to be on ESP, so that would have made four on ESP. So I'm not really of the mind that his releases were that far flung in terms of where they landed, and he did have the creative freedom to do pretty much whatever he wanted in most instances (something that might not have happened on Columbia or Prestige). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 22 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said: One of the ECMs and one of the IAIs were supposed to be on ESP Out of interest Clifford, which ones? I might save your post for those days when Bley's earlier discography feels like a maze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 Ballads and Virtuosi. They were part of a proposed double LP for ESP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 Talking of Paul Bley I was scanning some old Jazz Centre Society flyers today and saw publicity for some performances over here in the early 1970s. Either ICA or Hampstead Country Club, will have to re-check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 On 3/28/2018 at 0:35 PM, uli said: Some interesting stuff, but I felt that the critic who did a lot of the commentary overestimated Mr. Bley's importance to some degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 38 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said: Ballads and Virtuosi. They were part of a proposed double LP for ESP. Thanks, two of my favourites. I'll take ECM pressing quality over ESP pressing bubbles any day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 haha, yes, me too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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