Wizard Of The Vibes

[Guest]

I purchased the Blue Note CD and noticed that three of the original songs from the LP BLP 5011 are missing.

criss-cross

eronel

willow, weep for me

Why would they omit these songs?

PS: I understand that I can find these songs on one of monks Blue Note CDs.

[Brad]

I'm assuming you have the RVG. If that's the case, look at the liner notes. It gives an explanation of why they did that. I remember when the RVG coming out that this caused a minor furor; Gary Giddins was quite critical of the reordering of the recordings.

[mikeweil]

Most people, Giddins included, seem to forget that the first LP issues of this music were in 10" LP format - the mixup of material from different sessions only appeared when this music was reissued on 12" LP. Why are the historical first issues on 10" LP ignored? Just because most have never seen one? The Blue Notes make much more sense in that format: sessions were mostly complete (except for alternate takes added to later issues).

... Gary Giddins was quite critical of the reordering of the recordings.

The 12" LP he refers to was the first reordering! Ridiculous!

[Chuck Nessa]

Most people, Giddins included, seem to forget that the first LP issues of this music were in 10" LP format - the mixup of material from different sessions only appeared when this music was reissued on 12" LP. Why are the historical first issues on 10" LP ignored? Just because most have never seen one? The Blue Notes make much more sense in that format: sessions were mostly complete (except for alternate takes added to later issues).

... Gary Giddins was quite critical of the reordering of the recordings.

The 12" LP he refers to was the first reordering! Ridiculous!

Even more ridiculous when you understand "Wizard Of The Vibes" was a reissue of a bunch of 78s. What a bunch of crap!

[.:.impossible]

All that being said, I'd still like to see all of the tracks associated with this title in one place!

[Chuck Nessa]

Why?

If you are really interested, I'm sure you can find some Japanese reissue for mucho bucks.

[Daniel A]

Of course, the original track sequence of a certain album does not always have to be most desirable for everybody.

(Example - have been discussed on other forums in an ancient past: Mobley's No Room for Squares, The Turnaround and Straight, No Filter, I prefer to listen to the tracks from a certain session; I remember Jim Sangrey thinks otherwise )

[Guy Berger]

Of course, the original track sequence of a certain album does not always have to be most desirable for everybody.

(Example - have been discussed on other forums in an ancient past: Mobley's No Room for Squares, The Turnaround and Straight, No Filter, I prefer to listen to the tracks from a certain session; I remember Jim Sangrey thinks otherwise )

FWIW, this is a different case. The "original LP sequence" for the Jackson tracks in question wasn't the original issue. This is not true for the Mobley.

Guy

[Daniel A]

FWIW, this is a different case. The "original LP sequence" for the Jackson tracks in question wasn't the original issue. This is not true for the Mobley.

I know. I just wanted to point out that there may be cases where some people feel that a certain presentation of a couple of sessions works better, while not being the "original", and the Mobley albums just sprang to mind.

All that being said, I'd still like to see all of the tracks associated with this title in one place!

Why?

Edited November 28, 2005 by Daniel A

[.:.impossible]

Why? Why not? Hey, I'm not bitching. I'm just saying I'd like to have all of those recordings right there. Wouldn't it be nice?

I'm not shelling out the clams for a Japanese reissue just to have a particular sequence. I'm just saying, wouldn't it be nice? Yes. Yes, it would. The more Bags the better.

[Chuck Nessa]

Why? Why not? Hey, I'm not bitching. I'm just saying I'd like to have all of those recordings right there. Wouldn't it be nice?

I'm not shelling out the clams for a Japanese reissue just to have a particular sequence. I'm just saying, wouldn't it be nice? Yes. Yes, it would. The more Bags the better.

I really don't understand. All the stuff is available with material grouped by session. What is the problem?

[.:.impossible]

There isn't a problem.

[Brad]

FWIW (and this is from memory), the RVGs didn't even have the original liner notes because of the new regroupings.

[Chuck Nessa]

Most of the original liners were "puff pieces" and didn't add much. IIRC, "Wizard" had the catalog printed on the back.

[mikeweil]

The problem is:

Each disc format, 10" LP, 12" LP, Compact disc, has its playing time limits.

IIRC Milt Jackson recorded only five sessions for Blue Note, one as a leader, two with Thelonious Monk, one as a pianist on a Fats Navarro/Howard McGhee session, and later one as a featured guest with Hank Mobley.

The first four all were issued as 78's first and then as 10" LPs. Nobody believed the 12" LP would practically force the smaller LP format out of business only a few years later. So when Alfred Lion wanted to reissue this material on 12" LP he had to re-assemble and sequence the tracks with respect to LP playing time and musical coherence. Plus, there were some alternate takes worthy of release. But there was no way two complete sessions would fit on one 12" LP. So he spread the two sessions with Monk and Bags' own among two 12" Lps including a few alternates.

For CD issue, you face the same problem: All material from these three sessions will not fit onto one CD, perhaps if you leave off the alternates.

I think its the better solution to keep sessions intact on reissues. But for most collectors, a bit of nostalgia plays a part: you want to recapture the feelings you had when you first encountered the music, and this seems to be much easier for most people when they listen to the tracks in the same order. I think it's as simple as that.

I too sometimes expect to hear tracks in a certain order, but I also use random play every once in a while to get a new listenting experience - but when I asked for this I found practically noone here seems to practice this, too. I agree with Daniel A that session order sheds a different new light on the music - as a reissue producer I would decide separately each time beacuse it doesn't work the same always.

For similar reasons, I would opt for new liner notes or at least additional new ones to eliminate some meaningless commentary or put it into perspective.

[Guest]

I would like to preserve my 10" copy of milt.

Even though I am not 100% happy with the CD format, I do like being able to hear my rare LPs (via CD) without having to wear them out.

I think that any original LP reissued on CD should keep to the original sequence of songs.

After the original sequence, put in the alternate and additional stuff.

Edited November 30, 2005 by Westy56

[Teasing the Korean]

Regarding the four Monk tunes that were yanked from Genius of Modern Music, are the best-sounding versions on the 2001 RVG Wizard of the Vibes CD?  I ask because those four on the Milt Jackson CD do not sound as good as the RVG Genius CDs.  Perhaps they were not recorded as well?

[jazzbo]

I think the RVG cds sound really darned good on all the Monk and Monk/Jackson material. Possibly the very best digital sound of the Monk led sessions is on this two cd set:

 

https://www.discogs.com/release/6474196-Thelonious-Monk-Round-Midnight-The-Complete-Blue-Note-Singles-1947-1952

[Teasing the Korean]

54 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

I think the RVG cds sound really darned good on all the Monk and Monk/Jackson material. Possibly the very best digital sound of the Monk led sessions is on this two cd set:

https://www.discogs.com/release/6474196-Thelonious-Monk-Round-Midnight-The-Complete-Blue-Note-Singles-1947-1952

Thanks.  The 4 Wizard tracks (Milt Jackson, not Todd Rundgren) sound like 78s to my ears, but many of the tracks on the remastered Genius CDs sound like proto-hi-fi. I will do a more thorough comparison though.

Does the set that you reference have different mastering?  (I realize that "remastering" can including everything from making entirely fresh transfers to tweaking the treble from the previous remaster.)

[jazzbo]

40 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Thanks.  The 4 Wizard tracks (Milt Jackson, not Todd Rundgren) sound like 78s to my ears, but many of the tracks on the remastered Genius CDs sound like proto-hi-fi. I will do a more thorough comparison though.

Does the set that you reference have different mastering?  (I realize that "remastering" can including everything from making entirely fresh transfers to tweaking the treble from the previous remaster.)

Yes, different, non RVG, non McMaster mastering--mastered by Kevin Reeves. I like the RVGS (I have kept US and Japanese versions) AND I like this 2 cd set which sounds very good as well. 

Edited September 20, 2024 by jazzbo

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Michael Cuscuna was able to find original metal masters for many of the tracks RVG used on those CDs. Michael was extremely happy with how they came out and felt that these CDs would stand the test of time.

[Teasing the Korean]

9 hours ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

Michael Cuscuna was able to find original metal masters for many of the tracks RVG used on those CDs. Michael was extremely happy with how they came out and felt that these CDs would stand the test of time.

I just compared four tracks from the RVG Genius Vol. 2 with the four Monk tracks on the RVG Wizard of the Vibes.  I'm hearing distortion on the latter four that I don't hear on Genius. 

[Gheorghe]

I think I have them double: 

On Thelonious Monk Vol. 2 (BN) and on Milt Jackson also by BN. 
I remember I had the Monk tunes also on the old double album with the hidous colour of the cover. (LA Sessions). 

The 4 Monk tunes sound very strange. Thinking that this is BN, one of the best recording disc houses, it sounds very very rudimentary like those old tapes we made in the beginnings on casetofon for "Demo tapes". 

You don´t hear the drums properly and THIS IS SHADOW WILSON.
John Simmons was a very good bassist but his bass sounds very uneven recorded. 
Monk and Bags sound good.
The two vocals with Kenny Hagood also sound very fine. To bad that they did not whole albums with him like they did with the Billy Eckstine band. Hagood was the second great bop singer. There are always one or two features of him with top boppers, but only in the late 40´s mostly in the Roost. And on Dizzy´s "I waited for you" on video !