Why isn't that a standard?

[Rosco]

Apologies if this topic has come up before (most things have by now)...

Just been sitting here transcribing Grant Green's Idle Moments, written by Duke Pearson, when it occurred to me that I know of no recorded versions other than Green's (I know you guys will bombard me with 25 other versions of it). Still, kind of surprising, given its simple but beautiful chord structure and lovely melody (particularly in the second eight bars).

So, any other tunes you would nominate as neglected standards?

Be warned: I may steal any suggestions to play with my trio.

It's either that or 'Autumn Leaves' again...

[mikeweil]

Who plays any Duke Pearson tunes, these days?

Or Wayne Shorter's, or Monk's, besides those played by everybody? Or McCoy Tyner's from his later Blue Note days?

[Sundog]

Be warned: I may steal any suggestions to play with my trio.

I have always thought that a creatively arranged medley of Idle Moments and Django would be very nice. There's probably a good reason why Django was covered on this album.

P.S. I just transcribed Grant's Tune from the Solid album. It's a keeper!

[JSngry]

"Up Up & Away", with a Trane/Elvin feel.

I'm serious. Great changes for blowing and a long, non-traditional form.

[Spontooneous]

I fear for "Idle Moments" if it became a standard. It would just get sped up, and that would sap the tune of its life.

[Free For All]

I fear for "Idle Moments" if it became a standard. It would just get sped up, and that would sap the tune of its life.

And then it would get reharmonized with a bunch of Trane changes and become "Idle Moments Notice".

[bertrand]

It's amazing how few pieces recorded by Blue Note artists ever get played anymore. Only a handful became standards.

I tried to remedy this by collecting a bunch of copyrights of these tunes at the Library of Congress, but it's generated very little interest. Of course, part of the problem is I can't xerox these things willy-nilly.

But there is some interest in Lee Morgan stuff (finally, about 10 years after I dug up some 50-60 unrecorded tunes). Stay tuned to this station for updates. If you live in LA, mark your calendars for 1/30 (hidden pun intended).

Bertrand.

Edited November 23, 2005 by bertrand

[JSngry]

It's amazing how few pieces recorded by Blue Note artists ever get played anymore. Only a handful became standards.

Consider this - how many Broadway tunes have become standards relative to the overall output? Not that many,really.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a whole bunch of Horace Silver tunes, several Herbie things, some by Joe Henderson, and lots lots of Wayne things that have become "standards". And let's not forget Monk, Timmons, & Benny Golson. A handful relative to the overall output, sure, but a pretty impressive legacy nevertheless.

Plenty of "jazz originals" are good tunes and are fun to play. But that's not all it takes to become a standard. It takes something really distinctive in terms of how melody and changes hook up (melody is just as important in making a jazz standard as it is in pop, perhaps even moreso since there usually is melody and not just hooks), as well as something, usually, distinctive about the rhythm of the melody and/or the groove underneath it. It needs to be something that is "different" yet at the same time "familiar" for both players and listeners. It's an inexact set of criteria to be sure, but as somebody who's delved into the arcania of transcribing and playing un(der)played recorded songs, I can tell you that a lot of seemingly "intriguing" originals just don't stick for repeated performances, not because they're "bad" or anything, but just because they don't have that "thing", that undefinable quality that differentiates a "good tune" from a "standard". You play them a few times, have fun with them, and then it's like, "OK, that was fun, time to move on."

I'm all for rediscovering obscure gems, of which there are many, but the collective consciousness will be what it will be, and no matter how good most of this material is, it'll never become standards. Doesn't meant that it's unworthy or anything, just means that it's always going to primarily be material for the cognosenti, of which I have no problem being a member of.

Edited November 23, 2005 by JSngry

[danasgoodstuff]

How about "Ferry Cross the Mersey" with a Trane/Elvin feel, all ruboto like "Alabama" then snapping into tempo for the bridge...or am I nuts?

[Rosco]

How about "Ferry Cross the Mersey" with a Trane/Elvin feel, all ruboto like "Alabama" then snapping into tempo for the bridge...or am I nuts?

IIRC Pat Metheny did Ferry as a solo guitar piece.

[DTMX]

I've been fooling around with a swing version of Elvis Costello's Watching The Detectives for awhile. Kind of a lounge-y feel with a gruff sax melody.

[White Lightning]

I wish some of Mobley's tunes would become standards.

For example:

This I dig of you (Soul station)

My Groove your move (Roll Call)

Avila & Tequila (HM 4tet & Bu's "At the Cafe Bohemia")

[JSngry]

This I Dig Of You gets played fairly often, I think. It's not "common" like, say, "On Green Dolphon Street", but it's not "obscure" either. Sorta in-between.

[RDK]

Billy Harper's "Priestess." I heard this for the first time not long ago and was shocked by how familiar it felt but utterly unknown it was to me.

[JSngry]

Billy Harper's "Priestess." I heard this for the first time not long ago and was shocked by how familiar it felt but utterly unknown it was to me.

That and "Croquet Ballet" are two Harper tunes I've transcribed and played in my own groups over the years. Both were always well received by players and audiences alike. Billy's tunes have all the elements needed to become standards, I think, except for one thing - players willing to tackle the structures, which are often, I guess you could say, "winding". But other than that, they're "catchy" (the melodies are almost always, as you noted, rife with "familiarity") and appealing, harmonically challenging yet not intimidating, in short, everything you're looking for. Someday, maybe, they'll break out into the mainstream.

[Guest]

My experiences with various Jazz gigs, and the protagonists in that theater of absurdity, have lead me to the unscientific conclusion that many current day standards have become standards because of the fact that many musicians are simply lazy mmmmmfffff-ers. Trilok Gurtu has said much the same thing : he avoids Jazz musicians now cuz so many of them "think of these outrageous & complex harmonies but are frozen when confronted with rhytmic phrasings not encountered in Music Rhythms 101").We can all think of those "jazz" gigs where the players just "show up"..."we're just gonna get thru the gig, therefore here's our repertoire : Satin Doll, Green Dolphin, Caravan, Well You Needn't, etc etc, SOS". It's like a default mentality. Considering the amount of material and the fact that this is a creative music par excellence, the defaulting to a mere handful of moldy figs is a curious anomaly. Or maybe we're not as succulently magnifique as we think we are...

The laziness can be somewhat exemplified by the fact that there's a Jazz tune known the world over even by people who don't know or give a damn about Jazz : it's DEFINITELY a standard. And talk about "lazy" - it's got basically one chord. This tune is rarely played by the "standards contingent" even though, again, it is world famous. The tune is, "Take Five". It's almost like most cats are afraid to play a "one" with a feel between 4 and 6. WTF? But maybe it's just a silly tune...maybe. But is it sillier than "Groovin' High", "Satin Doll", or "C-Jam Blues"? Or how about "Blue Bosa" or "One Note Samba"? Come on, man, those are pretty sad tunes!!! No one plays "Peaches En Regalia" or any of the Corea tunes or Steve Swallow tunes in the Fake Books. Why not? Cuz most of us are lazy mmmmmfffff-ers!!!

Some of this laziness starts in music school. I remember showing up at a session at UNT (where a kid can be a kid); I was thrilled to have been asked. Cleaned up my percussive assault instrument, got some music together, got out the waffle iron for my hair, clean underwear, faced Mecca (poster of Max Roach) 3 times...YES! I was ready to PLAY SOME JAZZ MUSIC! Things at the session went well until I requested (they never ask the descendents of the instrumental ancestors of W.Africa - I believe it's known as "nigger rules": shut the fuck up and make us look good...) to play some "other music". Geezus Kreeste! You'd thought I'd pee'd on the canapes! They all wanted to play the SOS over and over. Needless to say, I began to be overcome with the same emotions as would Jed Clampitt at a Snoop Dog concert or Prez Bush at a free minds/free market symposium. Time to get away?

In Improv 101 (where a kid can't be a kid) I was called to task, by the Department of Permissable Jazz Behavior, for putting the HH on 1 & 3 during the "middle eight". Horrors! I was made out to be the source of all civil unrest. All I could think of during the Inquisition was that Roy Haynes hadn't stuck his HH on 2 & 4 since Wednesday afternoon Febuary 17, 1959.

I love the standards. But what's so evil about Dave Holland's Shadow Dance? Or almost every Andrew Hill tune? Blood Count (Strayhorn), Aleucha (Miles' Round Midnite recording), Corea's got a boatload of snappy numbers, and you'd think that Horace Silver only wrote 2 tunes! WTF?

Standards are simply those tunes that Jazz musicians have defaulted to when confronted with time constraints and attitude deficiencies! (Damn!...that wasn't TOO harsh, was it?)

I hereby nominate Sonny Rollin's "Freedom Suite" to be played on the next Jazz/Standards gig...Or for "Love For Sale" to played by one horn player while another horn player plays the Beatles' "Can't Buy Me Love." Now THAT'S entertainment, folks.

[connoisseur series500]

I'm not quite sure I know what qualifies as a "standard." There are tunes that are recorded by others, but I don't think they would be classified as "standards." One example of this would be Joe Henderson's "Step Lightly." There are several versions recorded, but no one would recognize it in a jazz bar.

Organissimo's got "Pumpkin Pie." That one should become a standard!

[Nate Dorward]

(they never ask the descendents of the instrumental ancestors of W.Africa - I believe it's known as "nigger rules": shut the fuck up and make us look good...)

No, I, er, hadn't come across that particular phrase before.

You can't blame players who are just coming together for a jam for pulling out the warhorses that you're guaranteed everyone will know. In more formal situations, though, it would be nice if people worked harder to pick interesting repertoire (rather than just originals).

On the other hand, Lee Konitz plays the same dozen garden variety standards every gig & I'm happy to hear him do that.

Actually I think that it's probably time that "Freedom Suite" be given a rest--it's been covered by Branford Marsalis, David S Ware (twice) & Ken Vandermark in the past two years!

I was watching The Pirate the other day & was surprised that the ballad number there, "You Can Do No Wrong", hasn't been picked up. Lovely tune. Maybe it got overlooked because the rest of the score isn't one of Porter's better ones (I'm not expecting any covers of "Nina" anytime soon).

[7/4]

No one plays "Peaches En Regalia" or any of the Corea tunes or Steve Swallow tunes in the Fake Books. Why not? Cuz most of us are lazy mmmmmfffff-ers!!!

Bite your tongue. Organissimo plays Peaches on their lastest CD.

[Rosco]

Considering the amount of material and the fact that this is a creative music par excellence, the defaulting to a mere handful of moldy figs is a curious anomaly.

I love the standards. But what's so evil about Dave Holland's Shadow Dance? Or almost every Andrew Hill tune? Blood Count (Strayhorn), Aleucha (Miles' Round Midnite recording), Corea's got a boatload of snappy numbers, and you'd think that Horace Silver only wrote 2 tunes! WTF?

Well said, sir. My point exactly.

This thread was partly in response to a recent experience I had putting a trio together for a gig. I assembled a set list of (what I would consider to be) reasonably familiar standards- nothing too taxing, nothing too obscure (Out of Nowhere, Laura, My Shining Hour, Beatrice, etc) only to find out that the bass player (a very good musician) wasn't familiar with any of them. When I asked if he had any tunes that he would like me to consider for the setlist it was all basic 'jam session' warhorses (Summertime, Watermelon Man, Satin Doll). Now I have nothing against playing those tunes (I try and bring the same commitment and creativity to whatever I'm playing regardless) but you do wonder why some players never seem to get beyond the same dozen tunes.

My point about 'Idle Moments' (as an example) was that, for me, it meets all the criteria of a great tune- strong melody, beautiful chords, simple but interesting structure- and it comes from a very well known album so would be familliar to a good many jazz listeners (at least I assume so- maybe I'm mistaken?). It's not even a 'taxing' tune; it's simplicity itself. Why play Satin Doll again when you could play a tune that is no more difficult but hasn't been worked to death?

For the record the bass player nailed all of those 'new' tunes without any effort. Which is even more puzzling... an obviously skilled player who has no repertoire beyond a handful of blues tunes and basic standards. And he is not, by a long shot, the only musician I've met to have fallen into that trap.

Anyway... there's a Sonny Clark tune I was going to add to this list. Damned if I can remember the title though.

[Rosco]

The laziness can be somewhat exemplified by the fact that there's a Jazz tune known the world over even by people who don't know or give a damn about Jazz : it's DEFINITELY a standard. And talk about "lazy" - it's got basically one chord. This tune is rarely played by the "standards contingent" even though, again, it is world famous. The tune is, "Take Five".

Actually this gets me thinking- why so few Brubeck tunes in the standards repertoire? (Yes I know Take Five is Desmond's, but still...)

In Your Own Sweet Way and (maybe) The Duke get played but that's about it. Regardless of how people may feel about him as a pianist (I totally understand his detractors on that count) the man's written some good tunes. Strange Meadowlark is one that springs to mind.

[Soul Stream]

People don't play cool, different tunes because there are no bands anymore. Just thrown together sets of sidemen whores.

[Rosco]

People don't play cool, different tunes because there are no bands anymore. Just thrown together sets of sidemen whores.

Probably a lot of truth in that. But even whores need to specialize occasionally.

So I'm told.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Also, I think a lot of young players are so generic sounding (of course there are exceptions!) that it doesn't matter what they're playing, except in so far as it might make head/out choruses more or less attractive.

Interesting point about Brubeck - I agree, there's probably mileage in there!

Edited November 28, 2005 by Red

[king ubu]

This I Dig Of You gets played fairly often, I think. It's not "common" like, say, "On Green Dolphon Street", but it's not "obscure" either. Sorta in-between.

True. I've heard Jamal's trio with George Coleman doing it a few years ago.

As for Monk: maybe you got to open your horizon a bit? There's that marvellous band from Berlin, "Die Enttäuschung", with lead players Axel Dörner (trumpet) and Rudi Mahall (best thing to happen to the bass clarinet since the death of Eric D.). They do *all* Monk tunes, and they do them from memory, each and every feghing tune, including the complex ones, including a few stoopid ones that I haven't heard before, including the well-known ones (but those often wiht some kind of special twist). They are simply doing a marvellous job.

Not sure though if hooking up with Alex Schlippenbach was such a smart idea. He was pale by comparison wiht the other band members, and he was playing much too nice-sounding stuff to fit into Monk's tunes AND the sound of the other musicians. Anyway, Dörner and Mahall are *most* impressive, I tell you! And their arrangements are great, full of ideas and funny twists.

On a side-note, Ben Riley is doing another, very different, but also nice, Monk project, with no piano this time, but some guitar player (Freddie Bryant) and arrangements by Don Sickler. One of the sax players there is Wayne Escofferey, who indeed belongs into the other thread about best active tenor players on the scene...