AOTW Oct 23-29 - Oliver Nelson

[mikeweil]

No matter how many times I listen to it, "Stolen Moments" will always sound like the prototypical "jazz" tune.

Is it played often? I have the feeling that they could be played more often - or is it just me?

Anyway, the tempo he chose for Stolen Moments is exactly the right one, IMHO - I hate to hear it any faster.

[medjuck]

Co-incidentally I just heard a version of Stolen Moments on the radio by a group led by Chris Walden. Not very interesting. I think I've heard other versions too. But none of them are nearly as good as the version on "Blues and...."

Edited October 24, 2005 by medjuck

[Jim R]

Is it played often? I have the feeling that they could be played more often - or is it just me?

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Back in the 80's and 90's, "Stolen Moments" used to get SO much play (recordings by a variety of artists, including a few vocal versions) on KJAZ and KCSM that I got really sick of it. Maybe my impression is simply skewed in the opposite direction, but it seemed to me that this tune was overdone for many years. Personally, I can't stand Mark Murphy, and his version was played to death.

Too bad, because I really do think it's a fine composition. In my own collection, I have these versions:

Chet Baker- Live / The Meridien/ Tarbes, France- Private Rec.

Kenny Burrell- Moon And Sand- Concord

Kenny Burrell- Concierto De Aranjuez- Meldac (Japan)

Booker Ervin- Structurally Sound- Blue Note (Pacific Jazz)

Curtis Fuller- Jazz Conference Abroad- Trip

Eddie Higgins- Haunted Heart- Sunnyside

Milt Jackson- At The Kosei Nenkin (Vol. 1)- Pablo

J. J. Johnson- J.J.! (The Dynamic Sound Of J.J. With Big Band)- RCA

Lorne Lofsky- It Could Happen To You- Pablo Today

Carmen McRae / Betty Carter- Duets: Live at the Great American Music Hall- Verve

Oliver Nelson- The Blues And The Abstract Truth- Impulse

Jimmy Raney / Doug Raney- Stolen Moments- Steeplechase

Jack Wilson- Ramblin'- Fresh Sound (Vault)

[marcoliv]

btw Jim, Higgins delivers a tremendous performance of Stolen Moments. don't you think?

Marcus

[Alexander Hawkins]

and there's nothing more frustrating than an excellent musician being merely pleasant.

Nicely put!

[JSngry]

BTW, here's ANOTHER cover (a German reissue):

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WTF? That's the Turrentine/CTI Cherry cover photo?!?!?!?!?!

[ep1str0phy]

Is it played often? I have the feeling that they could be played more often - or is it just me?

←

Back in the 80's and 90's, "Stolen Moments" used to get SO much play (recordings by a variety of artists, including a few vocal versions) on KJAZ and KCSM that I got really sick of it. Maybe my impression is simply skewed in the opposite direction, but it seemed to me that this tune was overdone for many years. Personally, I can't stand Mark Murphy, and his version was played to death.

Too bad, because I really do think it's a fine composition. In my own collection, I have these versions:

Chet Baker- Live / The Meridien/ Tarbes, France- Private Rec.

Kenny Burrell- Moon And Sand- Concord

Kenny Burrell- Concierto De Aranjuez- Meldac (Japan)

Booker Ervin- Structurally Sound- Blue Note (Pacific Jazz)

Curtis Fuller- Jazz Conference Abroad- Trip

Eddie Higgins- Haunted Heart- Sunnyside

Milt Jackson- At The Kosei Nenkin (Vol. 1)- Pablo

J. J. Johnson- J.J.! (The Dynamic Sound Of J.J. With Big Band)- RCA

Lorne Lofsky- It Could Happen To You- Pablo Today

Carmen McRae / Betty Carter- Duets: Live at the Great American Music Hall- Verve

Oliver Nelson- The Blues And The Abstract Truth- Impulse

Jimmy Raney / Doug Raney- Stolen Moments- Steeplechase

Jack Wilson- Ramblin'- Fresh Sound (Vault)

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Ahmad Jamal does a gorgeous version on "The Awakening".

Edit: I just said gorgeous, didn't I?

Edited October 25, 2005 by ep1str0phy

[GA Russell]

I was introduced to Stolen Moments by Herbie Mann's album Standing Ovation at Newport, with Chick Corea taking a nice solo.

That was one of those $1.99 mono albums I got when mono was discontinued.

[Guy Berger]

The only thing that could improve this great record would be one less track--the jarring Hoe-Down.

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Woah -- just started reading this thread, so I don't know whether anybody else choked at reading this completely unmerited diss at "Hoe Down". I completely disagree!

Guy

[gdogus]

Ell, I wouldn't dismiss it entirely, but can imagine it being better placed if programed later in the album. It's a little jarring as the second tune...to me.

[Guy Berger]

In terms of presenting a coherent and unified vision, capturing a mood, a time, and a place, creating a lingering and ever-deepening fascination, and just in terms of overall mojo, comparisons with Kind Of Blue are not out of line. Not at all.

The comparison re: KoB is right-on, though on the compositional complexity spectrum it's coming from a totally different place (and yet mood-wise, as you say, ends up in a place that's not so far away).

Alright, time for my comments. If you are just coming into what will probably be a very long thread and want to sample the "greatest hits", I recommend starting with JSngry's post on page 1, Michael Fitzgerald's on page 3, and Epistrophy's on page 4. For me those were the most thought-provoking.

A few random thoughts:

1) Despiting crediting their version of "Hoedown" to Aaron Copland, ELP's version of that tune also quoted the first theme from Oliver Nelson's. A pretty hip thing to stick into a millions-selling rock album.

2) In Ashley Kahn's A Love Supreme book, Kahn writes some interesting stuff about Creed Taylor's role in making this LP. Nothing humongous, but I think he did pick the title (somebody correct me if I'm wrong), which is part of the album's mystique. This was one of the 1st four albums on the fledgling Impulse! label.

3) Any thoughts on the relative merits of this album vs. Straight Ahead (on Prestige)? I've heard a few people suggest that the Prestige record is actually the better one.

Guy

Edited October 25, 2005 by Guy

[ep1str0phy]

Ell, I wouldn't dismiss it entirely, but can imagine it being better placed if programed later in the album. It's a little jarring as the second tune...to me.

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It's because it shows up after "Stolen Moments". "SM" to "Hoe-Down" is one of the most jarring segues in the history of recorded jazz. It's a schizophrenic mood shift--magnified by the fact that the "Hoe-Down" intro sounds like soft-parody. I think it plays into the overall "concept" of the album--a sort of emotional travelogue, encompassing the whole "sphere" of "blues"--but that doesn't make it any less out there. It took me a long time to come to terms with it. Then again, I didn't get "Kind of Blue" until a plane flight to Germany, so...

Edited October 25, 2005 by ep1str0phy

[7/4]

Ell, I wouldn't dismiss it entirely, but can imagine it being better placed if programed later in the album. It's a little jarring as the second tune...to me.

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It's because it shows up after "Stolen Moments". "SM" to "Hoe-Down" is one of the most jarring segues in the history of recorded jazz. It's a schizophrenic mood shift--magnified by the fact that the "Hoe-Down" intro sounds like soft-parody. I think it plays into the overall "concept" of the album--a sort of emotional travelogue, encompassing the whole "sphere" of "blues"--but that doesn't make it any less out there. It took me a long time to come to terms with it. Then again, I didn't get "Kind of Blue" until a plane flight to Germany, so...

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Yep. Sums it up. I think I could have done something to that head to make it a bit less angular, but the solos bring it up to speed.

[Jim R]

btw Jim, Higgins delivers a tremendous performance of Stolen Moments. don't you think?

Marcus

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I sure do. I only wish it were longer (nice how it segues into "Israel" before returning to the main theme, though). An elegant rendition, by an elegant musician. I especially dig the portion of Eddie's solo where he comps in the upper ranges with his right hand and plays a nice line down low with his left. Drummond and Riley played great on that, too, IMO.

[SEK]

3) Any thoughts on the relative merits of this album vs. Straight Ahead (on Prestige)?  I've heard a few people suggest that the Prestige record is actually the better one.

  Guy

I could have been one of those people, but I'm not prepared to assert that "Straight Ahead" is better. I just like it more and listen to it a lot more.

"The Blues And The Abstract Truth" has long been a classic album. I've owned a copy for almost 35 years and can play it in my head. I came upon "Straight Ahead" somewhat later, and I was rather surprised, actually, when I eventually grooved with it even more than with its much more popular and heralded predecessor (Both albums were recorded within a week or two of eachother, as I recall).

The Nelson-Dolphy front line (sometimes hand-in-glove, other times displaying piquant contrasts, always sympathetic-approaching-telepathic) is backed by Richard Wyands, George Duvivier, and (again) Roy Haynes; all play beautifully together. The tunes and solos are just as compelling to me, the atmosphere warmer and more intimate and soulful (to my soul).

I've never warmed up to that other Nelson-Dolphy collaboration, "Screamin' The Blues", BTW, FWIW, etc.

[catesta]

Excellent choice.

I just put in the cd player this very moment.

[John Tapscott]

3) Any thoughts on the relative merits of this album vs. Straight Ahead (on Prestige)?  I've heard a few people suggest that the Prestige record is actually the better one.

   Guy

I could have been one of those people, but I'm not prepared to assert that "Straight Ahead" is better. I just like it more and listen to it a lot more.

"The Blues And The Abstract Truth" has long been a classic album. I've owned a copy for almost 35 years and can play it in my head. I came upon "Straight Ahead" somewhat later, and I was rather surprised, actually, when I eventually grooved with it even more than with its much more popular and heralded predecessor (Both albums were recorded within a week or two of eachother, as I recall).

The Nelson-Dolphy front line (sometimes hand-in-glove, other times displaying piquant contrasts, always sympathetic-approaching-telepathic) is backed by Richard Wyands, George Duvivier, and (again) Roy Haynes; all play beautifully together. The tunes and solos are just as compelling to me, the atmosphere warmer and more intimate and soulful (to my soul).

I've never warmed up to that other Nelson-Dolphy collaboration, "Screamin' The Blues", BTW, FWIW, etc.

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Listened to "Straight Ahead" last night. It is a very fine album. One could argue that it actually provides a better setting than BAT for Nelson and Dolphy to stretch out as soloists. They both play very well, and I especially like Dolphy's bass clarinet work. In fact, I think I actually prefer Dolphy's playing on Straight Ahead and Screamin' the Blues to his playing on BAT.

HOWEVER, as a total package and musical listening expereince, I think BAT is a significant step ahead of SA. For one thing, the extra horns provide much greater opportunity for ensemble arranging and playing, which to me is a great highlight of BAT. I've been listening to those inner voicings and lines that Jim spoke of, and wow, they are incredible. The writing on Cascades is quite astonishing in that regard. And not to take anything away from Richard Wyands who is a fine player, but Bill Evans is well, Bill Evans, and he brings what only he can bring to a session. I do agree that a great deal of the deep "vibe" of this session is due to his presence. And BAT is so well balanced, in terms of memorable compositions, soloists, and arranged sections. It's a very thoughtful album, but never loses a sense of spontaniety and adventure.

In an AMG review of BAT Scott Yanow says that Dolphy cuts all the other soloists. I don't agree with that. I believe all the soloists play well, and the solo that sticks in my mind is Nelson's on "Stolen Moments." And Freddie, man oh man! If I were a trumpet player, his playing on this date would be sending me back to the 'shed in a hurry (or maybe into retirement).

[JSngry]

The varied opinions of "Hoe Down" are interesting. I agree that it's a jarring juxtoposition to "Stolen Moments", but I also think that that jarring quality is intentional. Think about it - the title "Stolen Moments" certainly implies a brief, doomed not to last escape. For whom, from what? Two lovers stealing away for a rendezvous? Perhaps. But also, perhaps, somebody, anybody, having a few moments of personal reverie, a reverie that is inevitably rudely interrupted by The Man. You get into your own personal zone, where you're alone with yourself, for better or worse, it doesn't really matter because if there's any problems, they're your problems, not anybody else's, and before too long...HOE DOWN!!!

It never fails.

Now, Nelson's take on all this could be bitter or sarcastic, but it's not really. It is what it is. "The Man" is just a fact of life. An unpleasant one, perhaps, but Nelson seems to be saying through this tune that no matter how unpleasant The Man is, there's always a way to get over and around, if not away from, him. You can't hide, but you can run, and if you run fast enough and smart enough, well, you're ahead, right?

Lest anybody think that I'm "inventing" this take on Nelson's take, let me quote Nelson himself, from the Apirl 24, 1975 issue of Down Beat (pgs 10-11). The words are still startling 30 years later, and certainly raise eyebrows. But I think they provide a deep insight into Nelson's overall outlook on life (and by extension, his music). Nelson is speaking in regard to his 1969 State Department-sponsored tour of Africa:

I thought all black people could play the blues. But I found out that I was wrong - it was a myth. In Africa they didn't know when to go to the IV chord. And we found that over there the only music of any real consequence was the native music, the tribal music.

We visited all these African countries and all these major cities, but we couldn't find any musicians who remotely understood what jazz is all about. There was one trumpet player in Senegal who sounded something like Miles Davis. But he was a copy.

It really puzzles me. If you took a log and threw it into the ocean where Senegal is - Elgore Island is there, where they used to take some of the slaves and keep them for passage to wherever they were going - and you watched this log float, it would end up in Haiti, it would end up in Jamaica, or it would end up in south America because the current flows that way.

I've just come back from a trip to Jamaica. It's amazing, all these black people and still jazz did not develop anywhere but here, in this country, in the United States. If you go to Jamaica, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic, you find high-life music, but you find nothing close to resembling jazz. I guess if I wanted to make a study, it would take another lifetime. But I think slavery was the answer. The fact that slaves were brought to this country and the slave songs emerged...its almost likegiving signals. The field song, the folk song, the spiritual, and before long you have American jazz that developed out of all this. And you know, thank God for slavery, because otherwise, I don't guess jazz would have happened at all.

So...what are we to make of a man who feels that the deep beauty of his music has its roots in one of the equally deeply darker episodes of human history? Is it any wonder that such a man played and wrote music that was equal parts pain and elation - never one more than the other, and neither given an implicit "approval" by its creator?

There's something disturbing about much of Nelson's music, and it's not that its creator said "Thank God for slavery". Nelson's music, even the blatantly commercial stuff, often sounds to me like a man who is about to explode, but not because he's "angry" or some such. He sounds like he's got this unresolvable tension inside him, and it sounds/feels like this tension is caused by the gnawing suspiscion that if you get rid of all the bad in life, you'll also get rid of all the good that comes as a result of it. And what, then, would be left?

Where can a man who feels this way go for comfort and solace from this abstract truth but the blues?

Stolen moments indeed...

[Big Al]

I’ve been reading this thread and listening to this album, and I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ve got the tinnest ears in jazz history. This album just doesn’t do anything for me.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that this album deserves its status as one of the great jazz albums. But another Kind of Blue? I’m sorry, I just don’t hear it. To these ears, this album sounds like a way-above-average Blue Note date.

Also, I like the arrangements of the themes. The solos? Well.....

Freddie is his usual inspired self. He had so much fire during this time that even if he tried to sound uninspired, he’d still be eons ahead of your run-of-the-mill trumpeters.

Eric Dolphy..... look, I just don’t get him, I’m not sure I’m supposed to get him. I know people like his jarring solos. I don’t. Now, his flute solo on “Stolen Moments” is quite nice. Otherwise, his alto sax is speaking a language my tin ears don’t register. My own hangup, to be sure.

Bill Evans seems to be going out of his way to NOT sound like Bill Evans. That’s probably a good thing. Somebody made a good comment about Bill playing differently for this session than he did for KOB because the settings were different. I totally agree.

Oliver Nelson? Well, I don’t know much about his soloing, but his playing on alto seems also to be quite jarring. That’s probably the point, and my tone-deafness does is no excuse for me not to hear what he’s saying.

I don’t know. I’ve listened to this album off and on for years, hoping that whatever it is that hits you guys would hit me. It hasn’t happened. Not sure if it’s ever going to.

But then, what do I know? For the longest time, I couldn’t stand Joe Henderson, either.

[tonym]

Welcome back Al!

Even if you do question Dolphy's Godliness

[danasgoodstuff]

I never found Dolphy hard to get at all, but then that's just me...Maybe you're looking too hard? The greatness of this album just jumped out at right off...as for the juxtaposition of "Hoe Down" & "Stolen Moments", sure it's a but of a contrast but I don't see/hear how any one who listens to rap or metal could fins it jarring...but again that's just me.

Something that perhaps we can all agree on is how well recorded this is...listening to it the other night (vinyl, 70's pressing) I was struck by just how good analog can be...didn't sound like a recording at all, sounded like saxophones right there in the room with me!

[Guy Berger]

Since this comment is at the tail end of a long thread it probably won't get any traction but...

In reading amazon reviews of this album, I get the feeling that there's a "school of thought" that says this album is indeed a classic, but pretends that Dolphy doesn't play on the album. As if they plug their ears whenever he steps up to the mike. Weird.

Guy

[fent99]

I'm late here too but would like to tell my story about this record. I'd been gradually easing myself into jazz in the late 80s and been travelling round Australia and New Zealand after a spell working in Australia. In a late night chat with a guy from California in a hostel in New Zealand he recommended this which I bought on CD (even though broke) in NYC on the way home. So whoever you were thanks for the recommendation. Not sure I even had a cd player when I got home...

Played it loads back then and must re listen after all the comments.

I think its a classic and love it every time I hear it.

Never realised that ELP quoted Hoedown (always presumed it was Copland) which I'd heard. Also loved Dolphy from the first moment I heard him and bought the 5 Spot albums next.

Sure I have Phil Woods doing Stolen Moments in Italy somewhere... Excellent too.