The times, they are a changing

[Christiern]

This is in the NY Times today--I found it interesting. Use this thread to reflect changing times ...

A Dubai shop window proclaims, "Blessed Ramadan," and a pants suit.

Edited October 12, 2005 by Christiern

[neveronfriday]

What I said elsewhere on this board: The West is making a huge mistake by imposing its values and its worldview. It's going to prove to be/have been one of the biggest mistakes of the 21st century.

We haven't even started to see the backlash that's going to happen.

P.S.: I say this as a stern advocate of, for example, Marshall and Truman without whom my country would have been a lot worse off. But I also say this as someone who has known Iranians and Iraquis for most of his life (many of which were refugees who came to Europe end 70's) and understands that even the ones who did find refuge in the West are highly critical of current and past European and American foreign policy. I'm not going to quote any of their statements here (we need a *beep* smiley) but this summer I took part in a conference on Middle Eastern affairs and what I (over)heard in the evenings, at the bar or at dinner, conversing with many of the guests from the various Middle Eastern states, scared me, to say the least.

With our (continuous) intervention(s) we have not only managed to kill more people than all secret services of the region couldn't have killed in a hundred years, but we will, in the end, pull out and leave the place in shambles, something the entire region will need decades to recover from (if at all). We've given a huge boost to fundamentalism and have practically handed the power to radicals that have the region in a vice grip that tightens every time we move a finger. Pants suits? Well, not much longer I would think.

Altogether a dreadful situation and a policy which is completely counterproductive.

As an aside: if you visit, as I did this year, the Turkish countryside and see the effects of the central government's imposing of new laws (and radical break with traditions) to comply with European requirements for membership in the EU, you can see in a nutshell what's happening south of there as well: the common people don't get it and people who were completely apolitical (is that the right word) are being radicalized in a very short time. I talked to some Turkish farmers who had absolutely no idea what was going on, why things were changing at such a rapid pace, sometimes in direct confrontation with (religious) traditions and every single one of them favored a return to a more traditional leadership (authoritarian) to get things "back to normal".

No matter what I thought of those utterances, to me (and the representatives of the EU that were along) it looked like major trouble brewing.

We're in over our heads here.

Time to rethink our agenda before things really blow.

[jazzbo]

Waistlines on women's jeans are getting higher again.

[kinuta]

Waistlines on women's jeans are getting higher again.

←

Not in Tokyo Lon (thank goodness)

[jazzbo]

Well, I guess that's good Wolf. . .

Never, thanks for sharing those impressions.

[rostasi]

Jeans Lowdown

[rostasi]

New Madame Alexander dolls...

The Hitchcock models:

[Dan Gould]

Jeans Lowdown

←

"You have to watch where you sit and when you bend down."

Yes, I often watch where you sit and when you bend down.

[Guy Berger]

What I said elsewhere on this board: The West is making a huge mistake by imposing its values and its worldview. It's going to prove to be/have been one of the biggest mistakes of the 21st century.

Several different things fit under "values and its worldview". The first is things like western culture, which people in other countries are DEMANDING -- no imposing going on whastoever. The people that complain about "imposition" are usually those trying to DICTATE to their fellow citizens what choices they can or cannot make.

Second is demanding representative government and better human rights from countries with poor records. Maybe this needs to be done with more subtlety, consistency, etc (and without threat of military action), but this is fundamentally the right approach. In almost all cases this is what "the people" want.

Third are things like armed interventions in Kosovo, Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq -- sometimes right and sometimes wrong.

Fourth are things like supporting dictators in other countries -- sometimes avoidable, sometimes unavoidable. When unavoidable, we need to do our best to push those guys hard on improving human rights.

Not sure which category the EU & Turkey falls into. The EU isn't imposing anything, it's the Turkish government. Turkey is a democracy and if they don't agree with the government's policies, Turks can throw it out in the next election.

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Actually -- in relation to the sales window in question -- westernization of the Arab world's elite classes has been around for decades, so I'm not surprised to find such a photo (particularly from a cosmopolitan place like Dubai).

Guy

Edited October 12, 2005 by Guy

[neveronfriday]

Just for the sake of argument: How do you know what the people want? Isn't it more the case that everyone is assuming that they know what the people want? Not much has changed since Woodrow Wilson, I think.

From what I heard, the people want to have an atmosphere in which they can leave the house without getting shot, blown up and/or dismembered. They want the same for their children.

I'm not going to argue the human rights aspect here or others (since I tend to agree with a lot of what you said), but it's a very comfy attitude to have and say "The people want this or that, no matter what the cost", all the while zapping through the news programs in your safe home.

I talked to a representative from a southern province (Iraq) who said (and I'm paraphrasing here): "I don't give a f*ck about democracy, elections, human rights and international involvement. I want to live."

Later he added that the population itself should be allowed to follow up on tendencies of westernization that were there before, without having the whole state dragged from a somewhat pre-industrial state into the 21st century (a process, I may add, we allowed ourselves 1 1/2 centuries to complete) in a few measly years.