Elmo Hope

[JSngry]

Dmitry, did Walt make mention of this date at all when you talked to him? The charges that he co-opted some composer royalties are not trivial, and I'd like to hear his side.

[shrugs]

Tom, that was a general statement and didn't apply to you. I do find it humorous when I find out a jazz lover is extremely conservative. Most of their heroes are far from that. Would they have helped out Hank in his later years if they didn't know who he was?

[Dmitry]

You know, Jim, I never asked him about it, simply because I didn't know of this album.

And he's the kind of man who doesn't like to pontificate about his past, but would rather answer direct questions.

I will ask him about his role in this record, knowing his firm stance against the drugs and what they did to his friends and colleagues.

Re:Composer royalties. Pure specualtion on my part, but if he co-composed the record or parts of it, it would definitely be heard in the music, stylistically at least.

What do you think?

[JSngry]

Most likely.

[DrJ]

I think this is a good example of how rumors get started. Dickerson, from what I can see on the liner notes, was NOT actually listed as a producer on SOUNDS FROM RIKERS ISLAND - he simply appeared to help get the record made by having the initial idea and conversing about it with the producer, and MAY have provided a service somewhat akin to musical director (the liners are vague on this). All Music Guide has him listed as a producer, but the liners DO NOT ever say that.

The person who I'm sure was the actual producer, clearly mentioned in the liners, was Sid Frey. His name (NOT Dickerson's) IS in fact co-listed on some of the tracks written by Hope, so it is certainly possible that HE tried to make off with some of the dough (although certainly I think he ought to be considered innocent until proven guilty - maybe there were reasons behind this). I listed this in my initial posting of the liners, but I guess people missed it.

Personally, I doubt very much Dickerson would have been involved with any such shenanigans, whether producing or (as it turns out in this case) not. I just wanted to make sure to clarify that Dickerson WAS NOT listed as a co-composer on those tracks, because I don't want to be responsible for besmirching the name of someone who seems to be brimming with musical and personal integrity.

Dmitry: As I also mentioned above but probably should have elaborated on - SOUNDS OF SYNANON (Pacific Jazz), which has Joe Pass on guitar and Arnold Ross on piano, is a similar deal - bunch of folks who were actively addicted to drugs at the time, but it even kind of goes one better, being recorded while the musicians were still ensconsed in rehab at the Synanon facility. Kind of a "rehab house band." That album was actually recorded a little earlier than Hope's, so it actually may have been the first to start a very small "trend."

Can still be had as a Japanese TOCJ CD reissue from last year. Excellent music, not included on the Joe Pass Mosaic unfortunately.

Edited July 13, 2003 by DrJ

[JSngry]

Thanks for that clasrification, Tony. It indeed sounded out of character for Dickerson (although stranger things have happened!).

As for Frey, I supposed in theory he's innocent-until-proven-guilty, but it's such a long tradition that the fact that his name shows up is evidence enough for me, and any burden of proof otherwise lies on him (or whoever remains to tell the tale).

We got a saying in these parts - "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me TWICE? Shame on ME!"

[DrJ]

JSngry Posted: Jul 13 2003, 04:09 PM 

We got a saying in these parts - "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me TWICE? Shame on ME!"

[Late]

Listening to Homecoming now ... dig Elmo's shirt.

[Late]

And here's an interesting article/essay on Hope.

[Brad]

Late, did you ever get the BN Hopes? That's a cd that should be reissued either as an RVG or a Conn.

[Morganized]

And here's an interesting article/essay on Hope.

I picked up an old OJC release of the Final Sessions and have had it in the regular rotation quite a bit lately. I would second some of the comments in the piece on Hope. I think these sessions show a much more mature player. A Night in Tunsia is a real highlight but the session as a whole is at least equal to, if not superior to his Blue Note work. IMHO

[Late]

Late, did you ever get the BN Hopes? That's a cd that should be reissued either as an RVG or a Conn.

I didn't, but agree that the Hope Blue Note's would make a fine re(re)issue. (Well, I say "fine," but I've never heard a note!)

I asked Michael Cuscuna about these sessions a year or so ago, and he said it was a possibility, but that he didn't know when. So, there's some hope ...

[Brandon Burke]

I think this is a good example of how rumors get started. Dickerson, from what I can see on the liner notes, was NOT actually listed as a producer on SOUNDS FROM RIKERS ISLAND - he simply appeared to help get the record made by having the initial idea and conversing about it with the producer, and MAY have provided a service somewhat akin to musical director (the liners are vague on this). All Music Guide has him listed as a producer, but the liners DO NOT ever say that.

The person who I'm sure was the actual producer, clearly mentioned in the liners, was Sid Frey. His name (NOT Dickerson's) IS in fact co-listed on some of the tracks written by Hope, so it is certainly possible that HE tried to make off with some of the dough (although certainly I think he ought to be considered innocent until proven guilty - maybe there were reasons behind this). I listed this in my initial posting of the liners, but I guess people missed it.

Personally, I doubt very much Dickerson would have been involved with any such shenanigans, whether producing or (as it turns out in this case) not. I just wanted to make sure to clarify that Dickerson WAS NOT listed as a co-composer on those tracks, because I don't want to be responsible for besmirching the name of someone who seems to be brimming with musical and personal integrity.

Has anyone checked the original Audio Fidelity issue to clarify this dilemma? Are we working from the Fresh Sound CD liners? What does the Chiaroscuro LP say?

I ask because I seem to remember reading about Dickerson as well.

[Chuck Nessa]

It was Sid Frey. Elmo sold the same tunes over and over to different companies- sometimes with new titles and sometimes not. Considering that I find it hard to see Frey as the bad guy.

[brownie]

Has anyone checked the original Audio Fidelity issue to clarify this dilemma? Are we working from the Fresh Sound CD liners? What does the Chiaroscuro LP say?

I ask because I seem to remember reading about Dickerson as well.

The Chiaroscuro LP says:

ORIGINAL RECORDING PRODUCED BY WALT DICKERSON

[mikeweil]

What does the Chiaroscuro LP say?

I ask because I seem to remember reading about Dickerson as well.

I have the Chiaroscuro CR 2009 pressing, and it clearly states at the bottom of the credits "Original recording produced by Walt Dickerson".

Nat Hentoff's elaborate liner notes - too long for me to type them out - paint a much more complex picture - were the Audio Fidelity's liner notes by Hentoff, too?

I just quote the beginning:

A major catalyst in the production of this album is Walt Dickerson, the singularly inventive vibist. Dickerson does not appear as a musician, but he was instrumental in assembling the musicians and in helping Sid Frey direct the session. The album was first conceived in a converstaion between Frey and Dickerson. .....

Seems like Dickerson was sort of a contractor/assistant producer.

[mikeweil]

I picked up an old OJC release of the Final Sessions and have had it in the regular rotation quite a bit lately. I would second some of the comments in the piece on Hope. I think these sessions show a much more mature player. A Night in Tunsia is a real highlight but the session as a whole is at least equal to, if not superior to his Blue Note work. IMHO

I hear the "maturity" as well, but hope went through a lot of things until he recorded them, and I hear a little less focus and, of course, much less fire than in the Blue Notes. Just my opinion.

The Blue Notes - great tunes that would deserve to be played more often - and the Riverside with Percy Heath and Philly Joe Jones - his old section mates from the Joe Morris band - will always remain my favourites.

[ghost of miles]

Up--I'm taping a Night Lights program tomorrow based around both RIKERS & SYNANON.

[BFrank]

Just got a copy of the "Trio and Quintet" Conn. Haven't listened to the whole thing yet, but so far it sounds pretty sweet. AMG gave it 5 stars, which is unusual.

I'm liking what I'm hearing.

[.:.impossible]

Yes. That is great stuff. Initially, I thought I'd prefer the trio recordings to the quintet, but that quintet is just fantastic.

[paul secor]

I'd like to mention Jackie McLean's Lights Out (now on Prestige/OJC) - a very good record, and Elmo Hope plays some very fine piano on it.

[blajay]

Does anyone have this? Any comments?

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Studio-Reco...8102&sr=1-2

I'm deciding whether to grab/look for the BN trio and quintet (after having read David Rosenthal's Hard Bop) plus the Riker's Island albums or if this is good enough by itself.

Thanks,

Jay

[Chuck Nessa]

Get the other two.

[blajay]

Get the other two.

Thanks!

[trane_fanatic]

Heard on Jim Bennett's show on KPFA that it's his birthday today.