Elmo Hope

[David Ayers]

That Gambit set pulls together a lot of material - it's quite intriguing.

[Chuck Nessa]

That Gambit set pulls together a lot of material - it's quite intriguing.

and denies Bertha some royalties.

[David Ayers]

That Gambit set pulls together a lot of material - it's quite intriguing.

and denies Bertha some royalties.

Denies the copyright owners revenue you mean? This stuff is mainly owned by Concord, I think. I guess if they thought their copyrights were being infringed they might say so or even do something about it. Large companies often license recordings to smaller outfits for a very small fee. Isn't that the case here?

[Nate Dorward]

With Gambit? You gotta be kidding.

[David Ayers]

With Gambit? You gotta be kidding.

Evidence?

[JSngry]

Evidence was a legit label. Gambit...notoriously Andorran.

[papsrus]

... I'm deciding whether to grab/look for the BN trio and quintet (after having read David Rosenthal's Hard Bop) plus the Riker's Island albums ...

Thanks,

Jay

These look really nice, and would (will) suit me fine. Thanks for bringing them up.

[David Ayers]

Evidence was a legit label. Gambit...notoriously Andorran.

Ha ha.

Here's what I don't get. These so-called Andorran labels (and indeed others) issue material which is still in European copyright owned among others by EMI, Sony/BMG, Warner and Universal. This material is distributed throughout Europe and sold by respectable retailers. I'm not talking here about material out of European copyright, or about bootlegs or anything else. Is it really the case that these large companies can take no actions to defend their own copyrights? Can Universal do nothing about Lonehill's Illinois Jacquet and Johnny Hodges issues? Were Warner unable to act against Gambit's Paul Desmond issue? Do Sony/BMG have nothing to say about Lonehill's J.J. Johnson? Do none of these companies at least feel inclined to drop a line to amazon to ask them to quit stocking them? The boots and out-of-copyright issues are an unrelated matter. Here the question is in-copyright material where the owner is a large company which appears otherwise able to police its rights. The usual bluster aside, does anyone have any facts on this?

[Niko]

Evidence was a legit label. Gambit...notoriously Andorran.

Ha ha.

Here's what I don't get. These so-called Andorran labels (and indeed others) issue material which is still in European copyright owned among others by EMI, Sony/BMG, Warner and Universal. This material is distributed throughout Europe and sold by respectable retailers. I'm not talking here about material out of European copyright, or about bootlegs or anything else. Is it really the case that these large companies can take no actions to defend their own copyrights? Can Universal do nothing about Lonehill's Illinois Jacquet and Johnny Hodges issues? Were Warner unable to act against Gambit's Paul Desmond issue? Do Sony/BMG have nothing to say about Lonehill's J.J. Johnson? Do none of these companies at least feel inclined to drop a line to amazon to ask them to quit stocking them? The boots and out-of-copyright issues are an unrelated matter. Here the question is in-copyright material where the owner is a large company which appears otherwise able to police its rights. The usual bluster aside, does anyone have any facts on this?

guess these firms are simply lacking the knowledge to find out whether it's their material or not

[Cliff Englewood]

Evidence was a legit label. Gambit...notoriously Andorran.

Ha ha.

Here's what I don't get. These so-called Andorran labels (and indeed others) issue material which is still in European copyright owned among others by EMI, Sony/BMG, Warner and Universal. This material is distributed throughout Europe and sold by respectable retailers. I'm not talking here about material out of European copyright, or about bootlegs or anything else. Is it really the case that these large companies can take no actions to defend their own copyrights? Can Universal do nothing about Lonehill's Illinois Jacquet and Johnny Hodges issues? Were Warner unable to act against Gambit's Paul Desmond issue? Do Sony/BMG have nothing to say about Lonehill's J.J. Johnson? Do none of these companies at least feel inclined to drop a line to amazon to ask them to quit stocking them? The boots and out-of-copyright issues are an unrelated matter. Here the question is in-copyright material where the owner is a large company which appears otherwise able to police its rights. The usual bluster aside, does anyone have any facts on this?

guess these firms are simply lacking the knowledge to find out whether it's their material or not

I don't think they are lacking the knowledge, I think they don't really give a shit and if they actually did go after them, the time and money it would take wouldn't justify the end result.

I know what David is saying though, there is more chance of finding the grey and black market stuff over here than there is the legitmate releases.

[JSngry]

Yeah, economics of scale.

[jazzbo]

I still think of the trio of Monk, Powell and Hope with awe. Three big rivers. . . that can spawn many tributaries.

[Van Basten II]

Evidence was a legit label. Gambit...notoriously Andorran.

Ha ha.

Here's what I don't get. These so-called Andorran labels (and indeed others) issue material which is still in European copyright owned among others by EMI, Sony/BMG, Warner and Universal. This material is distributed throughout Europe and sold by respectable retailers. I'm not talking here about material out of European copyright, or about bootlegs or anything else. Is it really the case that these large companies can take no actions to defend their own copyrights? Can Universal do nothing about Lonehill's Illinois Jacquet and Johnny Hodges issues? Were Warner unable to act against Gambit's Paul Desmond issue? Do Sony/BMG have nothing to say about Lonehill's J.J. Johnson? Do none of these companies at least feel inclined to drop a line to amazon to ask them to quit stocking them? The boots and out-of-copyright issues are an unrelated matter. Here the question is in-copyright material where the owner is a large company which appears otherwise able to police its rights. The usual bluster aside, does anyone have any facts on this?

guess these firms are simply lacking the knowledge to find out whether it's their material or not

I don't think they are lacking the knowledge, I think they don't really give a shit and if they actually did go after them, the time and money it would take wouldn't justify the end result.

I know what David is saying though, there is more chance of finding the grey and black market stuff over here than there is the legitmate releases.

It's basically the sad truth to it, the interest for those recordings is too scarce for them to care, as bad as it is for the musicians who should receive royalties, the sinister truth is that these Andorran companies are probably most of the time the only medium that will release this kind of music.

[.:.impossible]

I still think of the trio of Monk, Powell and Hope with awe. Three big rivers. . . that can spawn many tributaries.

I consider the Horace Silver Trio and Herbie Nichols Trios in the same echelon.

[blajay]

... I'm deciding whether to grab/look for the BN trio and quintet (after having read David Rosenthal's Hard Bop) plus the Riker's Island albums ...

Thanks,

Jay

These look really nice, and would (will) suit me fine. Thanks for bringing them up.

Hi Paps,

Shortly after this post a year ago, I found a Japanese King pressing of both the trio and quintet together on 1 LP. It sounds amazing. I'd stopped looking for the Riker's album, and I haven't been buying in a while, but I'll seek that one out again.

-Jay

[Niko]

... I'm deciding whether to grab/look for the BN trio and quintet (after having read David Rosenthal's Hard Bop) plus the Riker's Island albums ...

Thanks,

Jay

These look really nice, and would (will) suit me fine. Thanks for bringing them up.

Hi Paps,

Shortly after this post a year ago, I found a Japanese King pressing of both the trio and quintet together on 1 LP. It sounds amazing. I'd stopped looking for the Riker's album, and I haven't been buying in a while, but I'll seek that one out again.

-Jay

imho, hope got much "better" while he was in california... (much more lyrical, interesting, as if he had put so much tadd dameron in his music that he wasn't really a straight bud powell disciple anymore...) strongly recommend harold land's "the fox" and riker's island...

[Cliff Englewood]

... I'm deciding whether to grab/look for the BN trio and quintet (after having read David Rosenthal's Hard Bop) plus the Riker's Island albums ...

Thanks,

Jay

These look really nice, and would (will) suit me fine. Thanks for bringing them up.

Hi Paps,

Shortly after this post a year ago, I found a Japanese King pressing of both the trio and quintet together on 1 LP. It sounds amazing. I'd stopped looking for the Riker's album, and I haven't been buying in a while, but I'll seek that one out again.

-Jay

I have the Riker's Island album on cd and although I haven't listened to it in a long time, I don't remember it being all that great, IMHO. It seemed a bit too sloppy or something, maybe it's time to refresh the ole memory.

[Niko]

... I'm deciding whether to grab/look for the BN trio and quintet (after having read David Rosenthal's Hard Bop) plus the Riker's Island albums ...

Thanks,

Jay

These look really nice, and would (will) suit me fine. Thanks for bringing them up.

Hi Paps,

Shortly after this post a year ago, I found a Japanese King pressing of both the trio and quintet together on 1 LP. It sounds amazing. I'd stopped looking for the Riker's album, and I haven't been buying in a while, but I'll seek that one out again.

-Jay

I have the Riker's Island album on cd and although I haven't listened to it in a long time, I don't remember it being all that great, IMHO. It seemed a bit too sloppy or something, maybe it's time to refresh the ole memory.

one thing one might find a bit annoying is that the size of the bands are varied from tune to tune; two different singers on one song each (earl coleman is fine but a bit special, the other guy i could never listen to for the whole tune), trio, quartet, sextet... i really like the compositions, also something about the trumpeter and the alto player, they seemed a bit like strangers, somewhat restricted, don't know, but in a good way... and philly joe jones, hope and john gilmore a great, too

(actually in my last post i forgot my favorite elmo hope session which is the sextet part of homecoming (with blue mitchell, frank foster and jimmy heath iirc)

[Cliff Englewood]

... I'm deciding whether to grab/look for the BN trio and quintet (after having read David Rosenthal's Hard Bop) plus the Riker's Island albums ...

Thanks,

Jay

These look really nice, and would (will) suit me fine. Thanks for bringing them up.

Hi Paps,

Shortly after this post a year ago, I found a Japanese King pressing of both the trio and quintet together on 1 LP. It sounds amazing. I'd stopped looking for the Riker's album, and I haven't been buying in a while, but I'll seek that one out again.

-Jay

I have the Riker's Island album on cd and although I haven't listened to it in a long time, I don't remember it being all that great, IMHO. It seemed a bit too sloppy or something, maybe it's time to refresh the ole memory.

one thing one might find a bit annoying is that the size of the bands are varied from tune to tune; two different singers on one song each (earl coleman is fine but a bit special, the other guy i could never listen to for the whole tune), trio, quartet, sextet... i really like the compositions, also something about the trumpeter and the alto player, they seemed a bit like strangers, somewhat restricted, don't know, but in a good way... and philly joe jones, hope and john gilmore a great, too

Yes I was listening to it again last night and my opinion hasn't changed, there are few nice bits and pieces but over all it doesn't really hold one's attention.

[Pim]

On 11-7-2003 at 6:59 AM, brownie said:

His Riverside album 'Hope-Full' is often overlooked. That's the solo album where

Bertha Hope joins in on several tracks. Not an easy album but I often go back to

that one. Some of the most fascinating piano improvisations on record.

A very underrated record by a very underrated pianist. Hope solo is much different from Hope in a group I think. He’s more fluent and melancholic in a way when playing unaccompanied. Very interesting stuff by a unique pianist. The duets with Bertha are also pretty great 

[ghost of miles]

Up for Elmo’s centennial today. We’re re-airing a Night Lights show this week in his honor:

Hope Lives: A Portrait of Elmo Hope

Is WKCR in NYC doing any kind of celebratory Elmo broadcast today? Iirc a street was renamed after him several years ago.

[Gheorghe]

I really admire Elmo Hope, he was not only a great pianist, he was a great composer ! 

But maybe his live was one of the tragedies of post war jazz. 

And people who were near to Bud Powell said that Hope was "Bud´s worst friend" . 
there are also reports of an occasion where Bud wanted to visit Hope very late in both´s lives. 

[mhatta]

It's interesting that 2023 is the centennial for Red Garland and Elmo Hope (and the next year is Bud's).  Is there any other big name born in 1923?

[Larry Kart]

5 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

I really admire Elmo Hope, he was not only a great pianist, he was a great composer ! 

But maybe his live was one of the tragedies of post war jazz. 

And people who were near to Bud Powell said that Hope was "Bud´s worst friend" . 
there are also reports of an occasion where Bud wanted to visit Hope very late in both´s lives. 

 

5 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

I really admire Elmo Hope, he was not only a great pianist, he was a great composer ! 

But maybe his live was one of the tragedies of post war jazz. 

And people who were near to Bud Powell said that Hope was "Bud´s worst friend" . 
there are also reports of an occasion where Bud wanted to visit Hope very late in both´s lives. 

"Bud´s worst friend" -- How so?

[T.D.]

33 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

 

"Bud´s worst friend" -- How so?

I'm not familiar with the anecdote, but it very likely refers to substance (ab)use IMO.

Edited June 29, 2023 by T.D.