Coltrane At The Half Note

[jazzbo]

Any good liner notes? By pianist David Wild perhaps?

[J Larsen]

Any good liner notes?  By pianist David Wild perhaps?

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The liner notes seemed pretty flakey to me - I just sort of skimmed over them.

[7/4]

Any good liner notes?  By pianist David Wild perhaps?

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By Ashley Kahn (author of the Kind of Blue Book) and Ravi Coltrane.

[jazzbo]

Thanks guys.

They would have been better by David Wild. . .but oh well!

[jazzbo]

I met David Wild here in Austin at the Elephant Room this year. Wow. Nice man and very knowledgeable! Good pianist and bandleader too!

[Guy Berger]

Is it just me, or does anybody else's mind start to wander halfway through ANY solo that lasts 24 minutes?  As great as much of this material is, I have a hard time concentrating for such long periods.

That's my experience as well. However, Trane is one of the few guys able to make paying close attention worthwhile.

I agree with Lon that it's too bad David Wild didn't write the liner notes. His liner notes on other Trane albums are consistently illuminating. I don't know David that well, but I interacted with him a few times on the Miles list and he seems like a really nice guy.

Guy

[skeith]

Is it just me, or does anybody else's mind start to wander halfway through ANY solo that lasts 24 minutes?  As great as much of this material is, I have a hard time concentrating for such long periods.  I do love the intesity of this stuff more than anything else.  And to hear these 4 masters at their height live in this manner is pretty breathtaking.

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You are not alone!!!

[JSngry]

That 24 minutes is going to pass anyway. Can't think of any better (or more inspired) musical ways for it to do so. 8 or so Hot Fives, 6 or so live Bird things, half a tune off of Sonny In Denmark, 2/3 of Concerto For Orchestra, a few other things would be as good. 24 minutes is 24 minutes, regardless of what happens.

[CJ Shearn]

I find my attention wandering sometimes during the solos on these sides but its a challenge to really focus. I end up getting hooked in the end though, my whole body gets into the music.

[JSngry]

Hell, most good movies last between 90 & 120 minutes, and they don't even have Elvin!

[7/4]

Hell, most good movies last between 90 & 120 minutes, and they don't even have Elvin!

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[medjuck]

Is this heresy: I lost some of my enthusiasm when I saw that it included yet another version of My Favorite Things. As the late (?) George Crater said in Downbeat in the mid-sixties "If I hear John Coltrane play My Favorite Things one more time I'm going to strangle Mary Martin". I'm sure I'll get the cd next week anyway.

[Soul Stream]

Hell, most good movies last between 90 & 120 minutes, and they don't even have Elvin!

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Yeah, but they do have popcorn and candy which is what I feel I need sometimes to get through some extended Coltrane.

[skeith]

And I don't think the problem is just the length of the solo on ODOU- it is also the character which is similar throughout.

First, the intensity is very high during the whole thing- there is very little let up. (so if music is about tension and release, there is no release) This solo would definitely meet Gopnik's definition of "pure emotion".

Second, the phrase lengths are very similar throughout.

Sometimes the same phrase is repeated 4,5,6 or more times.

This similarity leads, at least in my case, to a feeling of monotony.

(And yet there is Trane's magisterial tone and the energy of the playing and the whole band.)

[JSngry]

One man's steak is another man's baloney, I suppose. Fair enough.

[Soul Stream]

One man's steak is another man's baloney, I suppose. Fair enough.

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The thing I get from the One Down, One Up solo is that you have to take it as a whole. Far from individual notes, phrases, segments....it's the ENTIRETY of it that lifts you to a higher plane. 5 minutes of that solo wouldn't have the same effect. I understand the concept, and at times I'm in the right place to absorb that sort of playing, but I have the same relationship to to other long pieces. Not just Coltrane and not just this set.

This IS wonderful music. No argument there. I just recognize as a listener and human being, I'm not to that level in many ways...although sometimes I make it.

[jazzbo]

If I'm remembering the tracks correctly (from other versions) this is a really good Afro Blue!

[Guy Berger]

The thing I get from the One Down, One Up solo is that you have to take it as a whole.  Far from individual notes, phrases, segments....it's the ENTIRETY of it that lifts you to a higher plane.  5 minutes of that solo wouldn't have the same effect.  I understand the concept, and at times I'm in the right place to absorb that sort of playing, but I have the same relationship to to other long pieces.  Not just Coltrane and not just this set.

I agree up to a point -- despite the cliche of referring to Trane's late playing as "energy music" or "spiritual" (with potential connotations of irrationality or arationality), the guy was an extremely methodical, cerebral, structural soloist. So if you come in during the middle, or leave before the end, it might not make as much sense. (Not unlike a movie.)

Guy

[ep1str0phy]

And I don't think the problem is just the length of the solo on ODOU- it is also the character which is similar throughout.

First, the intensity is very high during the whole thing- there is very little let up.  (so if music is about tension and release, there is no release) This solo would definitely meet Gopnik's definition of "pure emotion".

Second, the phrase lengths are very similar throughout.

Sometimes the same phrase is repeated 4,5,6 or more times.

This similarity leads, at least in my case, to a feeling of monotony.

(And yet there is Trane's magisterial tone and the energy of the playing and the whole band.)

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Frankly, I think the Half Note material holds up far better than the majority of Coltrane's "extended" live dates. It's because this sense of tension is so palpable that these recordings are so rewarding for me. Marathon performances can grate on the nerves, but how much more for something like "Live in Japan" (where, despite the hardcore caterwauling, the emotional dynamic of the band is far more subdued throughout)? Frankly, it's easier for me to sit through half an hour of sustained explosiveness than it is to deal with an hour of "celestial" sounding piano arpeggios (and this from a guy who loves the latter-day Coltrane Quintet). I'd characterize the Half Note recordings as more "sensory overload" than sheer monotony (which tends, in part, to imply "bore" and emotional ineffectiveness--and if this stuff doesn't get your blood boiling, then I just don't know what to say...).

As far as the sense of repetitiveness... once again, listening to "One Down, One Up" (the specific performance, not just the album), I have to disagree. The phrases (lengthwise, melodically, etc.) sound repetitive because the performance is protracted--the soloists are allowed so slowly build. Coltrane--as too many have probably iterated--had this concept of solo construction that hinged upon intensive thematic variation and deconstruction. In a live context, this fact is much more evident; there was just more time to get the ideas in. With Trane, there is a tactile sense of evolution--gradual, but hardly "punctual"; his shifts are far less evident than, say, Rahsaan's (whose approach was sort of schizophrenic). But there is growth... try listening to the first two or so minutes of the "One Down, One Up" solo... then fast forward to the last two... there is a ridiculously wide gulf. It's all interrelated (hence, the snippets of recurrent material), but twisted into wild, grotesque, beautiful shapes. There is, ultimately, minimal real repetition but heavy variation. If there's anything I've learned with extended modal performances, it's this: few people, if any, are at Coltrane's caliber when it comes to dealing with limited thematic material.

In the end, this stuff requires sustained listening, which is too much to ask of a lot of people. I don't know if I can do it on a regular basis... but it's fun to try.

Edited October 14, 2005 by ep1str0phy

[Free For All]

Well put!

[CJ Shearn]

just listened to disc 1 again, and really the whole thing took me to another place. The playing and the energy is almost too much, my heart is still beating really fast as my whole body was getting into this music. What really does it for me is when Elvin and Trane are just going at it. After listening to clips of "Interstellar Space" that may be next, Coltrane's soul, the fact that are our bodies are not immortal are pouring through the horn.

Edited October 14, 2005 by CJ Shearn

[7/4]

After listening to clips of "Interstellar Space" that may be next, Coltrane's soul, the fact that are bodies are not immortal just pour thru the horn from the clips I heard.

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Excelent choice!

[Guy Berger]

Oddly enough, Coltrane's solos have an organizing effect on me. I find it very easy to stay focused on what he is playing, even those solos from Live in Japan that push the hour mark.

Somebody will have to check, but I think the OUOD solo (which runs for 26-28 minutes, depending on whether you include the brief melody statements at the beginning and the end) is longer than any of the solos on Live in Japan, even if you include the duets with Pharoah as part of Trane's solo. It might even be longer than any other Coltrane solo on record, though I am not sure about that.

Guy

[GregK]

I must get Live in Japan next. I've never heard it but the Half Note is incredible

[J Larsen]

After listening to clips of "Interstellar Space" that may be next

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That is one of my favorite albums, bar none.