Botti and Sanborn- Jazz Giants

[pasta]

today i was informed, that along with other such jazz legends as spyro gyra and the yellowjackets, chris botti and david sanborn are jazz giants as well. my stomach hurts.

[Guy Berger]

today i was informed, that along with other such jazz legends as spyro gyra and the yellowjackets, chris botti and david sanborn are jazz giants as well. my stomach hurts. 

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Both Sanborn and Botti can play when motivated, though obviously "jazz giant" is over-the-top.

Guy

[JSngry]

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Not only that, they're *legendary* jazz giants.

Mike

[JSngry]

[pasta]

JSngry, thanks, I needed that.

Guy- when "motivated"??????????

[Sundog]

Yeah, when motivated by money....

[DukeCity]

I'm certainly not a champion of the smooth jazz thing (I prefer my jazz to be chunky)

But I have enjoyed some of Sanborn's stuff, and I have seen interviews with him where he says clearly that he doesn't consider himself to be a jazz player. He puts himself into the R&B category.

Similarly, I seem to recall Botti referring to his music as 'instrumental pop' or some such thing.

That's in contrast to that Kenny G guy who often (quite 'humbly') compares his own greatness to that of the jazz masters.

The whole idea of trying to split hairs with defining different labels for music gets tedious pretty quickly. But I have to give guys like Sanborn and Botti props for keeping their thing in perspective.

So whoever informed you of their jazz giant status may need to attend a 're-education' facility of some kind.

[Claude]

Botti was also in the Top 50 "most beautiful people" in People Magazine

[BruceH]

today i was informed, that along with other such jazz legends as spyro gyra and the yellowjackets, chris botti and david sanborn are jazz giants as well. my stomach hurts. 

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"Informed" by who?

[pasta]

a co-worker who is allegedly a fan of jaz music. JSngry- any more antacids?

[JSngry]

How 'bout some Johnnie Ray instead? He kinda looks like Speedy anyway...

[pasta]

*******urrrrrrrrrrp********* thanks, JSngry, i needed that. whew.

[Guest akanalog]

botti rocks with tony levin and bill bruford's band. was david torn a part of that too?

anyway-i was very impressed with botti there.

[DTMX]

And Sanborn was playing Julius Hemphill songs on a Tim Berne release, Diminutive Mysteries (Mostly Hemphill).

[tjobbe]

does anyone remember D.S. playing here

I guess talent is not necessarily what he lacks...

Cheers, Tjobbe

[BruceH]

a co-worker who is allegedly a fan of jaz music. JSngry- any more antacids?

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Take two Ellington records and call me in the morning.

[gdogus]

Don't get upset - get informative. Offer your co-worker a quick sampler of players whom you consider to be "jazz giants," and let the games begin. To keep the playing ground level, you'll probably want to stick to contemporary sax and trumpet players, but I bet you can offer a compelling ... um ...alternative perspective.

Edited September 26, 2005 by gdogus

[Soul Stream]

I saw Botti perform a ballad, perhaps "My Romance" if I recall correctly and actually really enjoyed it. Take away the good looks, nice threads and posing and there was some nice playing going on to my ears. Marketing and hype and labeling are things musicians get swept up in sometimes. I get the feeling the Botti might actually have the talent to go the "serious" route to some sort of degree and be considered as such. However, I hope I don't get stoned for saying this. I certainly don't get the same sort of sense of him that I do from someone like Kenny G or that "Bones" guy or Naji....

[Guy Berger]

botti rocks with tony levin and bill bruford's band.  was david torn a part of that too?

anyway-i was very impressed with botti there.

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Same here -- I think of this band as what Miles's group would have sounded like if in 1955 he'd hired the 1980s version of King Crimson instead of Red, Paul and Philly Joe.

Guy

[Kalo]

I saw Botti perform a ballad, perhaps "My Romance" if I recall correctly and actually really enjoyed it.  Take away the good looks, nice threads and posing and there was some nice playing going on to my ears.  Marketing and hype and labeling are things musicians get swept up in sometimes.  I get the feeling the Botti might actually have the talent to go the "serious" route to some sort of degree and be considered as such.  However, I hope I don't get stoned for saying this.  I certainly don't get the same sort of sense of him that I do from someone like Kenny G or that "Bones" guy or Naji....

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OK, so the guy is competent in a straight-ahead context.

But a "Giant"?

Shouldn't that term be reserved for those who shaped the entire course of jazz as a musical form?

Armstrong was a giant. Was King Oliver a giant?

Yes to Jelly Roll Morton. Certainly to Ellington.

Parker, definitely. Gillespie, arguably. Monk, Yes. Mingus... qualified yes. Coltrane, yes, for better or worse.

Thought experiment: was Roy Eldridge a "Giant"?

Who alive today is a "Giant"?

Rollins, perhaps. Jackie McLean is a great player, but a "Giant"? Not so sure.

So, then, how do Sanborn and Botti compare to McLean? To, say, Metheny, for godsakes?

Some people need to learn how to talk.

[Soul Stream]

I saw Botti perform a ballad, perhaps "My Romance" if I recall correctly and actually really enjoyed it.  Take away the good looks, nice threads and posing and there was some nice playing going on to my ears.  Marketing and hype and labeling are things musicians get swept up in sometimes.  I get the feeling the Botti might actually have the talent to go the "serious" route to some sort of degree and be considered as such.  However, I hope I don't get stoned for saying this.  I certainly don't get the same sort of sense of him that I do from someone like Kenny G or that "Bones" guy or Naji....

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OK, so the guy is competent in a straight-ahead context.

But a "Giant"?

Shouldn't that term be reserved for those who shaped the entire course of jazz as a musical form?

Armstrong was a giant. Was King Oliver a giant?

Yes to Jelly Roll Morton. Certainly to Ellington.

Parker, definitely. Gillespie, arguably. Monk, Yes. Mingus... qualified yes. Coltrane, yes, for better or worse.

Thought experiment: was Roy Eldridge a "Giant"?

Who alive today is a "Giant"?

Rollins, perhaps. Jackie McLean is a great player, but a "Giant"? Not so sure.

So, then, how do Sanborn and Botti compare to McLean? To, say, Metheny, for godsakes?

Some people need to learn how to talk.

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I certainly wouldn't dare call him a "giant", "legend" or even a good straight-ahead player (I wouldn't know). However, I think sometimes it's easy to lump all these people together when there certainly might be distinctions between guys like Botti and Connick vs Kenny G and that kind of thing. Is Harry Connick going to be on par with Jackie McLean? No, but these are all apples and oranges.

I just think jazz boards with guys listening to Albert Ayler records are going to be pretty predictabley hard on Chris Botti. It's a real easy target.

[Kalo]

I saw Botti perform a ballad, perhaps "My Romance" if I recall correctly and actually really enjoyed it.  Take away the good looks, nice threads and posing and there was some nice playing going on to my ears.  Marketing and hype and labeling are things musicians get swept up in sometimes.  I get the feeling the Botti might actually have the talent to go the "serious" route to some sort of degree and be considered as such.  However, I hope I don't get stoned for saying this.  I certainly don't get the same sort of sense of him that I do from someone like Kenny G or that "Bones" guy or Naji....

←

OK, so the guy is competent in a straight-ahead context.

But a "Giant"?

Shouldn't that term be reserved for those who shaped the entire course of jazz as a musical form?

Armstrong was a giant. Was King Oliver a giant?

Yes to Jelly Roll Morton. Certainly to Ellington.

Parker, definitely. Gillespie, arguably. Monk, Yes. Mingus... qualified yes. Coltrane, yes, for better or worse.

Thought experiment: was Roy Eldridge a "Giant"?

Who alive today is a "Giant"?

Rollins, perhaps. Jackie McLean is a great player, but a "Giant"? Not so sure.

So, then, how do Sanborn and Botti compare to McLean? To, say, Metheny, for godsakes?

Some people need to learn how to talk.

←

I certainly wouldn't dare call him a "giant", "legend" or even a good straight-ahead player (I wouldn't know). However, I think sometimes it's easy to lump all these people together when there certainly might be distinctions between guys like Botti and Connick vs Kenny G and that kind of thing. Is Harry Connick going to be on par with Jackie McLean? No, but these are all apples and oranges.

I just think jazz boards with guys listening to Albert Ayler records are going to be pretty predictabley hard on Chris Botti. It's a real easy target.

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I agree, Soul Stream, that there are degrees here. There are few players as reprehensible (or as popular) as Kenny G. I can't begrudge guys like Sanborn and Botti that they make a living; especially if they have a sense of proportion, as Sanborn and Botti apparently do according to previous posts in this thread.

Hyperbole is a perennial problem, and its subjects aren't all to blame.

Still, I don't have to listen to these guys.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Kalo

[Soul Stream]

Yeah, I'm "not listening" right along with you. I mean, why listen to Botti play "My Romance" when Gene Ammons is just a play button away. That's my constant problem with almost all recorded "new" music no matter how good (or bad) it is. I mean, to be honest, I've been listening to the same 50 "personal jazz favs from the 50's and 60's" albums almost exclusively for 10 years! Botti or Hargrove...ya know...Miles still wins.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Soul Stream

[clifford_thornton]

Well, Miles was for sure a great conoisseur of image, but the fact that he was also a major innovator separates him from Botti. Still, were it 1955, they might have gone to the same tailor.

As for whether Botti, Sanborn and Kenny G have chops, I have too much else to worry about enough to give a shit about any of the three.