Ornette Coleman reissues?

[RiRiIII]

I've been enjoying the recent Japanese reissues (prefix WPCR) of Ornette's Atlantic work quite a bit. There's a thread on this board where the general consensus on this reissue series (as a whole, not just the Ornette reissues) is that it's too loud — i.e. compressed and ear-fatiguing, but I'm not hearing that as much on the particular reissues I have

I'm not sure which Atlantic reissue program you refer to. I have around 10 Japanese Atlantics 60th Anniversary issues - WPCR 2xxxxx, they all sound excellent. I wasn't aware that these issues were thought to suffer from loudness/compression etc.

This is their official website:

http://wmg.jp/jazz1000/?icid=top120904

[Late]

... some are now being reissued again in cardboard mini LPs for 2.5 times the price.

Listen to the ORG Music The Shape Of Jazz To Come to experience a real upgrade to the nineties CDs.

I think the cardboard mini-LP reissues you're referring to are actually repressings from an earlier (pre-2012) edition? If I'm not mistaken (and it's possible I am, of course), these have different remasterings (i.e. not as loud) as the latest editions. One example is Change of The Century, a 24-bit edition that doesn't sound compressed to me. BUT, I'm only going by ear here. I've never checked discs for their actual output levels (though I appreciate very much when posters here do that and then report their findings). I'd like to hear that ORG Music disc.

To All — I didn't mean to stir the pot regarding loudness or compression. I was just trying to inform skeith — as much as I could — of the options out there. The Japanese editions contain the original vinyl track order, which (for me) is a bonus; it seems like skeith was looking for that.

I think we probably all agree that the music is great — it is! Everyone, of course, is going to have different opinions and/or perspectives on which edition of any given album sounds good (or not good) on their system. Lon's right — it's nice to have so many options. My hat's off to erwbol, too, for informing us all of his findings with current (SHM-CD) remasters. I, for one, really appreciate it.

[king ubu]

The WPCR CDs from late 2012 and early 2013 I bought (Mingus, Blakey) were very bright. They were cheap, but some (Mingus) are now being reissued again in cardboard mini LPs for 2.5 times the price. Great value.

Listen to the ORG Music The Shape Of Jazz To Come to experience a real upgrade to the nineties CDs.

Of course, to each his own.

Last time I looked, "The Shape of Jazz to Come" was still by Ornette Coleman?!?

I've been enjoying the recent Japanese reissues (prefix WPCR) of Ornette's Atlantic work quite a bit. There's a thread on this board where the general consensus on this reissue series (as a whole, not just the Ornette reissues) is that it's too loud — i.e. compressed and ear-fatiguing, but I'm not hearing that as much on the particular reissues I have

I'm not sure which Atlantic reissue program you refer to. I have around 10 Japanese Atlantics 60th Anniversary issues - WPCR 2xxxxx, they all sound excellent. I wasn't aware that these issues were thought to suffer from loudness/compression etc.

I try not to read these threads....I only get anxious

Good move. These threads can make you crazy.

Yeah, proof above

[erwbol]

Apologies if I came across as being strident.

Indeed, these seem to be reissues of discs from some years ago (Atlantic's 60th anniversary).

CDJapan

The WPCR CDs from late 2012 and early 2013 I bought (Mingus, Blakey) were very bright. They were cheap, but some (Mingus) are now being reissued again in cardboard mini LPs for 2.5 times the price. Great value.

Listen to the ORG Music The Shape Of Jazz To Come to experience a real upgrade to the nineties CDs.

Of course, to each his own.

Last time I looked, "The Shape of Jazz to Come" was still by Ornette Coleman?!?

Of course, my first remark was about a particular reissue series of which Coleman discs are a part. I just did not sample any Coleman CDs, but felt confident enough to make a judgement of the sound of the series as a whole.

[J.A.W.]

I wonder why some people are reacting so negatively when someone points out that to their ears the sound isn't that good. Some people don't hear it, others don't care, fine, and some do care. Why the negativity and snarky remarks - not here so much, but I've seen them on other threads. It's always the same on this board. I think it's time for me to take a break.

[skeith]

... as someone recently said on this board (but now I can't find it) ... sometimes I wish they had sequenced this box in the order of the original LPs rather than chronologically ... so I wonder if good sounding versions of the original LPs exist on CD.

Yes — I said that. Just like yourself, I played my vinyl of these albums more than the box set. I don't own the vinyl any more, and actually just sold my copy of the box set last week.

I've been enjoying the recent Japanese reissues (prefix WPCR) of Ornette's Atlantic work quite a bit. There's a thread on this board where the general consensus on this reissue series (as a whole, not just the Ornette reissues) is that it's too loud — i.e. compressed and ear-fatiguing, but I'm not hearing that as much on the particular reissues I have (Ornette!, Ornette On Tenor, and For Whom Who Keeps A Record), maybe, in part, because some Atlantic sessions were recorded at low levels and (to me) can benefit from some (judicious) compression. I have The Shape of Jazz to Come and Change of The Century on earlier Japanese editions, and, to me, they sound amazing. I grew up with this music as a teenager, it's imprinted on my brain, and I don't mind the hunt for (so-called) "better" sounding editions.

But, short answer — if you know this music in its original vinyl order, the Japanese editions retain this order (which I think is hugely important for The Shape of Jazz to Come in particular), and I think they sound pretty good.

If you do a search for WPCR and Ornette Coleman on CD Japan, it should pull up all the current reissues. The previous series had AMCY as its prefix.

My favorite Ornette Atlantic album, This Is Our Music, is being reissued in Japan on March 26th. I never liked the sound of the Sepia Tone reissue, and hope this new reissue at least sounds different. The music of course is staggering. Some of my very favorite Don Cherry solos contained therein.

Thanks so much Late.... have you compared these WPCR reissues to the Beauty is a Rare Thing box issued in the US?

[king ubu]

Hey, my remark was directed at myself this time, no need for bad feelings

[Late]

Thanks so much Late ... have you compared these WPCR reissues to the Beauty is a Rare Thing box issued in the US?

Yes. I personally prefer the WPCR reissues, for a variety of reasons. I sold my "Beauty Is A Rare Thing" box set, even though there are six tracks you can find nowhere else (not even in Japan).

I think the 2012/2013 WPCR Coleman discs (selling for 1000¥) are very good (not perfect). My favorite from this particular series is Ornette On Tenor. That one, to me, does sound excellent. (I just love that record, too — it's still overlooked, in my opinion, compared to other Coleman records.)

For The Shape of Jazz to Come and Change of The Century, I would probably not purchase from the WPCR (1000¥) series. I would look for earlier Japanese editions or the hybrid SACD mentioned above.

This post (of mine) either makes things a little clearer ... or a lot less clear.

[Late]

I've been enjoying the recent Japanese reissues (prefix WPCR) of Ornette's Atlantic work quite a bit. There's a thread on this board where the general consensus on this reissue series (as a whole, not just the Ornette reissues) is that it's too loud — i.e. compressed and ear-fatiguing, but I'm not hearing that as much on the particular reissues I have

I'm not sure which Atlantic reissue program you refer to. I have around 10 Japanese Atlantics 60th Anniversary issues - WPCR 2xxxxx, they all sound excellent. I wasn't aware that these issues were thought to suffer from loudness/compression etc.

The 60th Anniverssary reissue series, just to be clear, does not suffer from loudness/compression — in my opinion.* I was referring (above) to the most recent (1000¥ WPCR) reissue series.

* (The 60th Anniversary edition of Jimmy Giuffre's Jimmy Giuffre 3, for example, is the best-sounding version of that album I've heard. Finer than the Mosaic edition, in my opinion, and mucher finer than the original U.S. edition. Sadly, it does not contain bonus tracks.)

[skeith]

Thanks so much Late ... have you compared these WPCR reissues to the Beauty is a Rare Thing box issued in the US?

Yes. I personally prefer the WPCR reissues, for a variety of reasons. I sold my "Beauty Is A Rare Thing" box set, even though there are six tracks you can find nowhere else (not even in Japan).

I think the 2012/2013 WPCR Coleman discs (selling for 1000¥) are very good (not perfect). My favorite from this particular series is Ornette On Tenor. That one, to me, does sound excellent. (I just love that record, too — it's still overlooked, in my opinion, compared to other Coleman records.)

For The Shape of Jazz to Come and Change of The Century, I would probably not purchase from the WPCR (1000¥) series. I would look for earlier Japanese editions or the hybrid SACD mentioned above.

This post (of mine) either makes things a little clearer ... or a lot less clear.

Thanks and what about that box set called "Six Classic" albums which comes out of Europe I think and has the first six Atlantics by Ornette?

[Late]

... what about that box set called "Six Classic" albums which comes out of Europe I think and has the first six Atlantics by Ornette?

I don't have that box set.

[Head Man]

Thanks so much Late ... have you compared these WPCR reissues to the Beauty is a Rare Thing box issued in the US?

Yes. I personally prefer the WPCR reissues, for a variety of reasons. I sold my "Beauty Is A Rare Thing" box set, even though there are six tracks you can find nowhere else (not even in Japan).

I think the 2012/2013 WPCR Coleman discs (selling for 1000¥) are very good (not perfect). My favorite from this particular series is Ornette On Tenor. That one, to me, does sound excellent. (I just love that record, too — it's still overlooked, in my opinion, compared to other Coleman records.)

For The Shape of Jazz to Come and Change of The Century, I would probably not purchase from the WPCR (1000¥) series. I would look for earlier Japanese editions or the hybrid SACD mentioned above.

This post (of mine) either makes things a little clearer ... or a lot less clear.

Thanks and what about that box set called "Six Classic" albums which comes out of Europe I think and has the first six Atlantics by Ornette?

The "Classic" sets are generally pretty shoddy, using copies taken from anywhere. As an example, half of the Gigi Gryce set is taken from mp3 sources, presumably downloaded from the net somewhere. I'd keep well away from them if I were you.

[RiRiIII]

I've been enjoying the recent Japanese reissues (prefix WPCR) of Ornette's Atlantic work quite a bit. There's a thread on this board where the general consensus on this reissue series (as a whole, not just the Ornette reissues) is that it's too loud — i.e. compressed and ear-fatiguing, but I'm not hearing that as much on the particular reissues I have

I'm not sure which Atlantic reissue program you refer to. I have around 10 Japanese Atlantics 60th Anniversary issues - WPCR 2xxxxx, they all sound excellent. I wasn't aware that these issues were thought to suffer from loudness/compression etc.

The 60th Anniverssary reissue series, just to be clear, does not suffer from loudness/compression — in my opinion.* I was referring (above) to the most recent (1000¥ WPCR) reissue series.

* (The 60th Anniversary edition of Jimmy Giuffre's Jimmy Giuffre 3, for example, is the best-sounding version of that album I've heard. Finer than the Mosaic edition, in my opinion, and mucher finer than the original U.S. edition. Sadly, it does not contain bonus tracks.)

I am playing now this 60th anniv mini-lp from Japan. It really sounds phenomenal.

[skeith]

Thanks so much Late ... have you compared these WPCR reissues to the Beauty is a Rare Thing box issued in the US?

Yes. I personally prefer the WPCR reissues, for a variety of reasons. I sold my "Beauty Is A Rare Thing" box set, even though there are six tracks you can find nowhere else (not even in Japan).

I think the 2012/2013 WPCR Coleman discs (selling for 1000¥) are very good (not perfect). My favorite from this particular series is Ornette On Tenor. That one, to me, does sound excellent. (I just love that record, too — it's still overlooked, in my opinion, compared to other Coleman records.)

For The Shape of Jazz to Come and Change of The Century, I would probably not purchase from the WPCR (1000¥) series. I would look for earlier Japanese editions or the hybrid SACD mentioned above.

This post (of mine) either makes things a little clearer ... or a lot less clear.

Thanks and what about that box set called "Six Classic" albums which comes out of Europe I think and has the first six Atlantics by Ornette?

The "Classic" sets are generally pretty shoddy, using copies taken from anywhere. As an example, half of the Gigi Gryce set is taken from mp3 sources, presumably downloaded from the net somewhere. I'd keep well away from them if I were you.

Thanks HeadMan for the Heads up!!!

[762rob]

Is there a way of telling if Japanese CDs are mini-LP sleeves or jewel case?

Usually the price is a dead giveaway mini's are usually at least 2000 yen and up.

[Late]

On February 7, 2014 at 11:36 PM, erwbol said:

... the ORG Music The Shape Of Jazz To Come hybrid SACD. Get it while its around.

Bam.

[kh1958]

Ornette at 12 and Crisis to be reissued by Real Gone Music.

http://www.realgonemusic.com/news/2017/7/11/ornette-coleman-ornette-at-12crisis-cd.html

 

[JSngry]

Well, that took long enough!

[David Ayers]

I've owned the LPs since forever but even I will buy this.

[clifford_thornton]

I thought Atlantic coined the term free jazz.

[felser]

I'm in.

[paul secor]

I've had the original LPs for years, At this point in time, I don't need a CD reissue.

Just curious - does anyone have an idea how legit this is?

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, paul secor said:

Just curious - does anyone have an idea how legit this is?

In terms of Ornette's estate, I have no idea. Ornette chafed at them forever, which I think is why they never got reissued in his lifetime. But - he's dead now. Turning point!

As far as label-to-label, Real Gone does it right in terms of licensing.

[jazzbo]

Paul, this is going to be legit, Jim is right: Real Gone Music does things correctly. I have LP copies too, but mine are not in great shape and I've pre-ordered the new cd reissue. Two on one, yes these are short, but another label might have milked it for two cd releases.

Edited July 22, 2017 by jazzbo
left off a word

[paul secor]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

In terms of Ornette's estate, I have no idea. Ornette chafed at them forever, which I think is why they never got reissued in his lifetime. But - he's dead now. Turning point!

 

.

Not unless you're one of those who believe that estates have no rights and can't be wronged..