Bill Evans-Complete Village Vanguard 1961

[skeith]

Well, ok, "racist" was too strong a word, even if it was qualified with "unintentional". It's a loaded word, to be sure, and I should have been more careful in throwing it around as I did.

I am glad you said it before I did, but but what you said before, to use your term, was, in my opinion, BS.

I like Bill Evans and Bud Powelll in equal measure.

[JSngry]

Well, good! You're not the type I'm talking about then.

Edited September 20, 2005 by JSngry

[skeith]

to be fair to you JSngry, I should clarify.

I read Gopnik's review when it came out and don't remember thinking it was racist.

As for the portion of his article that you quoted, it does not appear to be racist and I don't remember him comparing Evans with any black musicians on the issue of "emotion" or whatever. If there is a portion of the article that appears to put black musicians in a bad light, I may have to retract my comments, but I did not see it in what you quoted.

Now, as for other musician/fans you encounter who are Evans fans that find Evans superior to black musicians, I can't say that's BS cause I don't know who you run into, so I wasn't saying BS about that.

As an aside, I can't think of any fans/players in NYC who think Evans has a monopoly on feeling or expression over black players- but that doesn't mean you don't encounter them in Texas.

[JSngry]

It's a big world, my friend.

[Kalo]

As to Evans and "pure emotion": I'd say that's correct. For much of his career, he pretty much expressed that one pure, melancholic (I won't say maudlin) emotion, over and over again.

However, if you pluralize and say "emotions," then he doesn't cut it, as great as he is in many respects.

Sure, I'm oversimplifying, he wasn't always that way, but I believe there's also a lot of truth in what I write.

As for Gopnik, he's a very good writer and a very good journalist, but sometimes he gets out of his depth. Just yesterday I happened to stumble across a Gopnik article about wine, and since I sell the stuff for a living, I had many quibbles with the statements he made in his piece.

It's a recognized phenomenon that the closer you are to the subject of an article, the more problems you may find with it, whether for factual reasons, interpretational differences, or whatever. I recall a Gopnik article about Django that received a fair amount of flak on this board a while back.

I think Sangrey's on to something here.

edited for spelling and clarity.

Edited September 20, 2005 by Kalo

[Kalo]

And Jim, one thing your postings on this board never lack is emotion -- or intelligence.

You're a damned passionate and eloquent writer (and I say that from the standpoint of one who could be considered something of a pro in the field), and I'd rather read you than just about anyone in Jazztimes, Downbeat, etc.

I really hope that you do write that Elmo Hope book.

Edited September 20, 2005 by Kalo

[JSngry]

Thank you.

Now stop it!

[Kalo]

You're welcome.

And I won't .

[Ron S]

Dammit, Kalo! Now we'll NEVER be able to keep him under control.

[DMP]

Interesting discussion. I read the "New Yorker" article when it came out - it was to mark the anniversary of the Evan's "Vanguard" session - and I honestly didn't take it in any way other than an attempt to commerate to what is in many jazz fans' view a favorite group of recordings, made in a club that is still going strong after all these years. I was happy to see it!

[JSngry]

Once again, it's not Gopnik's praise of the Vanguard music itself that bothers me. That music speaks for itself. It's his assignation of a "superiority" of Evans' emotional quality/goal/whatever to that of what he perceives to be the emotional quality/goal/whatever of bebop that is problematic to me at a level beyond mere musical preference.

It's one thing to say that this is your favorite music. It's another thing altogether to say that its your favorite music and that it is somehow "purer", "at a higher level", or some such than another type of music, especially when the music you prefer is a direct offshoot of that other music. It's the old "making a lady out of jazz" game being replayed all over again.

All sorts of implications to a thought like that, like it or not. And if anybody thinks that that's not what he's saying, read it again. Intentional or not, that's exactly what he's saying.

Perhaps he'd like a do-over?

[Brad]

I've been away traveling so didn't really see this coming out, something that will be rectified tomorrow. Gopnik's statement doesn't really bother me. It's something many of us might say. We just don't expect that kind of dumb statement to wind up in print!

I'm not sure what kind of emotion he's referring to. Is it open unbridled emotion or more a closely held kind. I don't think you would often find that in his playing. It's more of something waiting to be tapped into by the listener, rather than an all let it hang out type of emotion.

Edited September 20, 2005 by Brad

[skeith]

Adam Gopnik of The New Yorker wrote of Evans’s playing in these recordings, “They are as close to pure emotion, produced without impediments - not at all the same thing as an entire self poured out without inhibitions, the bebop dream - as exists in music.” This is a good day to read “That Sunday,” Gopnik’s 2001 account of the Evans Vanguard sessions on the occasion of their fortieth anniversary. It is a good day to remember one of our greatest musicians.

Ok, I want to take another look at this language. I wish I had saved the whole article because one sentence can appear a bit out of context.

So Gopnik describes Evans's playing as close to "pure emotion" "without impediments" "as exists in music" That says to me that there is other music he considers to have such pure emotion.

He does appear to compare it to bebop which he calls an "entire self poured out with inhibitions'" that is not clear what he means by that, but it also sounds to me like emotion, but if that is his definition of bebop well I disagree.

But by saying that Evans's music on this record is "not at all the same thing" as bebop does not necessarily say to me that he is saying it is inferior.

I mean if I said that the "rocking" music on the new Rolling Stones Cd is "not at all the same thing" as the new Sonny Rollins cd, can you tell which I like better?

I guess Jim you see Gopnik using "bebop" as to represent black music as opposed to the Evans band, which is white? Is that where you are coming from? Hence your initial reaction of racism.

Edited September 21, 2005 by skeith

[skeith]

It's one thing to say that this is your favorite music. It's another thing altogether to say that its your favorite music and that it is somehow "purer", "at a higher level", or some such than another type of music, especially when the music you prefer is a direct offshoot of that other music. It's the old "making a lady out of jazz" game being replayed all over again.

Actually I don't think Gopnik is saying that. I think he is saying that the performances ON THIS RECORDING reach a level of pure emotion that is very high. I would guess he might allow that this would not be true of other Evans performances.

[JSngry]

I guess Jim you see Gopnik using "bebop" as to represent black music as opposed to the Evans band, which is white? Is that where you are coming from? Hence your initial reaction of racism.

←

Yes. That might not have been Gopnik's intent, but, as with dealing with anybody you don't "know", one's gut reaction is to place the comment of that individual in the broader context of one's own experiences and proceed accordingly. Of course, mistakes can be made (and are), but the Law Of Averages indicates that you'll be right more often than not. You'll never know for sure until you try to find out, and not always then, even.

I've known a lot of white musicians and fans who view Evans' "emotions" as "rarified", and those of bebop as "common". I'm not saying that Evans didn't bring a special perspective to his music, especially in the days of this trio. But I refuse to say that his perspective and the emotions involved in its expression were somehow at a "less common" level than those of any great artist.

If I hadn't ran into this kind of thinking more than a few times over the years (and not just in Texas, btw ), I'd not be so adamant about calling it out when I think I sense it. There is a subliminal racism to it, at least in the sense that judging something that one relates to more readily to be more "special" than the equivalent found in another perspective (and in America, perspectives are so often shaped by race that to point out the exceptions rather than to admit to the rule is to miss the point entirely) is racist. "Personal appreciation" I can dig. But call it that, and don't put it into the context of All Music Ever Made By Everybody In The History Of The World.

The whole Great White Hope thing is still real in jazz today, although not nearly as much as it was in Evans' time. I've often asked myself what it is that all these white folks are hoping for? For a white guy who can play jazz that has a deep emotion and inner relaxation? The implication of the "hope" is that these things don't "come naturally to white folks, to which I say again - bullshit. They come naturally to most all humans. Who they don't come naturally to is people who have, for whatever reason, turned off their ability to sense/respond to them within themselves. That sets up jealousy, and that sets up the "hope" for "one of our own" to validate all of "us".

Well guess what - you validate (or invalidate) yourself. Period. No vicarious validations possible, much less accepted. But that's apparently too much strain to put on people who are already so far out of the loop that they're looking to take from somebody else what they already have inside themself. So they place their "hero" on a pedistal as a symbol of all that they'd like to think that they themselves are, or could be. Which is "as good as the black guys, only SPECIAL".

Why is he special? Because of his individaul triumph in shedding the bullshit and getting to the core of what it means for that one person to be human? Or because that he was A White Guy Who Could Play Jazz Really Good? Wellsir, if it's the former, then there's no need for comparisons and such, if for no other reason than that's what all great artists do. But if it's the latter, then you get into the realm of partial-at-best understanding, and the same fucked uppedness that got you into this mess in the first place is still fucking you up. Then comparisons have to be made to prove your point. And from there, it gets REALLY ugly!

Again, "racist" is such a strong word when directed at an idividual that I don't like using it unless it's clearly indicated. And in this case, I don't think that it is. But there is a racial element to such thinking, even though it is so often so subtle and so subconscious that it's sometimes embarrassing to suggest it. But there it is anyway. "racism" vs "Racism" - can the English language withstand such subtle distinctions?

Now, if Gopnik had no intention, conscious or otherwise, of comparing the emotional "worth" of Evans to that of bebop, then all he's guilty of is careless writing, of firing a gun that he didn't realize was loaded. Fair enough. But he should know that plenty of other people have fired the same gun, and that many of them have at least suspected that it was.

And yeah - it goes on in the black world as well (witness the flak tha Miles got for hiring Evans as a relevant example). It goes on in all worlds. But damned if I wanna play.

Edited September 21, 2005 by JSngry

[skeith]

Well Jim,

You may be very right about what you are saying about the Evans fans you encounter.

BUT, while i don't understand every phrase in Gopnik's sentence, bottom line is I really don't think he is saying, in that sentence, that Evans's music is superior. He is saying it is different. If the rest of the article leads you to that conclusion, then show us the language.

I do not necessarily think that music which is "pure emotion" is better than other music.

But it may not be fair to label Gopnik as one of the delusional Evans fans you seem to encounter.

I have edited some of my above posts to speak to the specific words in Gopnik's sentence which may clarify what it mean.

And now I Will Say Goodbye.

Edited September 21, 2005 by skeith

[JSngry]

I mean if I said that the "rocking" music on the new Rolling Stones Cd is "not at all the same thing" as the new Sonny Rollins cd, can you tell which I like better?

←

That depends on whether or not you had prefaced that statement with another one saying that the music on the Stones new album was as visceral a testimony to the indominatabilty of the human desire to stay forever young and vital as exists in music and then gone on to say that that is not at all the same thing as Rollins' ideal of standing up there and blowing his guts out until he dies.

Edited September 21, 2005 by JSngry

[skeith]

JSngry,Sep 20 2005, 10:13 PM]

That depends on whether or not you had prefaced that statement with another one saying that the music on the Stones new album was as visceral a testimony to the indominatabilty of the human desire to stay forever young and vital as exists in music and then gone on to say that that is not at all the same thing as Rollins' ideal of standing up there and blowing his guts out until he dies.

that will teach me to say goodbye! Did Gopnik have any such prefatory statement? Again I don't have the whole article.

[JSngry]

Haven't read the entire article, so I don't know. But the hypothetical statement of Stones vs Rollins that I presented above is how Gopnik's "Evans emotion vs bebop's emotion" comparison read to me.

Eye of the beholder, no doubt...

[GA Russell]

I see that CD Universe has this for only $20.98. That's only $6.99 per disc.

The more I listen to this, the more I like it. I find Disc 2 to be more appealling, less dry, than I did before.

I'm getting a lot more enjoyment out of this than I ever got out of the Sunday or Debby CDs.

[jazzbo]

Just got this last night from cduniverse.

So far, WOW. I really enjoy this. The sound is wonderful. I hadn't dug these sides out of the box set for a while, and they don't sound BAD there, but they're vivid here. The music has always been interesting, always something to find there, I even like Motian in this trio best of all his work that I've heard. A great price for these discs too.

[skeith]

Agreed Lon,

In all the above fracas it was easy to forget the contributions of LaFaro and Motian, which are stellar! This was really a trio where everyone gets to shine and the interaction is almost telepathic, for white guys that is.

[Ron S]

Has anyone had a chance yet to compare the sound of this box to that on the US 20-bit K2's of "Sunday" and "Waltz"? I know that Tjobbe said in an earlier post that the liners imply that the remasterings are the same, but I've seen at least one review of the Japanese box (on Amazon, I think) indicating that the sound of the box is better than on the US 20-bit K2's.

[skeith]

Ron,

I haven't done the comparison you are looking for, but the box and each cd within the box says 20bit K2, but I am not sure the sound is identical to the single cd issues.

I guess this is not much help.

Edited September 21, 2005 by skeith

[Brad]

I think it's pretty amuising that a lot of bloody time has been spent discussing what Gopnik said when nobody read his article in full except maybe skeith. I don't discount what Jim has said -- and it's probably damn true because I think a lot of his music doesn't necessarily show outward emotion (which is the kind I like best but that's me) but I'm not sure if that is what Gopnik meant. Of course I don't think anybody really knows what he meant because the more you read the statement, the less sense it makes.