JSngry Posted July 8, 2003 Report Posted July 8, 2003 A belated discovery for me, but a TOTALLY outstanding performance: The mid-70s thru the mid-80s was a spotty decade for Joe, but this is one of the highlights. A strong, STRONG performance. Quote
kinuta Posted July 8, 2003 Report Posted July 8, 2003 State of the Tenor is, of course. a Blue Note release. My mistake, sorry. Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted July 8, 2003 Report Posted July 8, 2003 The mid-70s thru the mid-80s was a spotty decade for Joe... Wasn't it for damn near everybody??? (At least more often than not.) Quote
DrJ Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 (edited) QUOTE (JSngry @ Jul 8 2003, 04:32 PM) The mid-70s thru the mid-80s was a spotty decade for Joe... Wasn't it for damn near everybody??? (At least more often than not.) Rooster, I hear ya in one sense. But having just listened again to the often remarkable "Wildflowers" loft sessions - originally produced by Alan Douglas and Michael Cuscuna from recordings made at Sam Rivers' fabled Rivbea loft and last reissued in complete form on Knit Classics as a 3-CD set that I HIGHLY recommend, I think the main problem was that the people running the record labels were, by and large, not listening to all the great stuff going down. And by that I mean the big labels. Either they were not recording it at all, or in someone like Joe's case, they sort of tried to make him into something he wasn't (and Joe by all accounts played along pretty willingly for a while, for reasons that I'm sure were good to him, but I'm glad he left some of the experiments behind relatively quickly!). That Wildflowers set is filled with amazing, creative music that still has clear ties with jazz tradition, yet my guess is only a handful of people on the board, let alone the rest of the world, have ever heard it. It was recorded right in NYC in 1976 over the space of about A SINGLE WEEK! (I can't imagine how much great music went down at Rivbea loft over the few years it was a thriving entity!) - right in the heart of the Gerald Ford "era" - and it took some young turks going down there with relatively crude equipment and production values to capture a host of the finest of the era doing the cutting edge thing. The list of musicians represented in this set is truly remarkable (cut and pasted from AMG, so I hold no responsibility for hilarious errors and typos, but you'll get the gist): Ahmed Abdullah - Trumpet Barry Altschul - Drums Hamiet Bluiett - Clarinet, Sax (Baritone) Charles Brackeen - Sax (Soprano), Sax (Tenor) Anthony Braxton - Alto, Clarinet, Sax (Alto), Contrabass, Contrabass Saxophone Marion Brown - Sax (Alto) Dave Burrell - Piano Jerome Cooper - Percussion, Drums, Saw Andrew Cyrille - Drums Anthony Davis - Piano Julius Hemphill - Sax (Alto) Michael Gregory Jackson - Performer Oliver Lake - Flute, Sax (Alto), Sax (Soprano) Byard Lancaster - Flute, Sax (Alto), Sax (Tenor) George Lewis - Performer Jimmy Lyons - Sax (Alto) Ken McIntyre - Flute, Sax (Alto) Kalaparusha Maurice McIntyre - Performer Roscoe Mitchell - Sax (Alto) Sunny Murray - Drums Sam Rivers - Performer Randy Weston - Piano Khan Jamal - Vibraphone Stafford James - Bass Charles Bobo Shaw - Drums Wadada Leo Smith - Performer Abdul Wadud - Cello Richard Evans - Performer Fred Hopkins - Bass Steve McCall - Percussion, Drums, Performer Olu Dara - Trumpet, Flugelhorn David Murray - Performer Lyle Atkinson - Bass Alex Blake - Bass Joony Booth - Performer Hayes Burnett - Bass, Drums Butch Campbell - Guitar Stanley Crouch - Drums Teddy Daniel - Trumpet Jack Gregg - Bass Jerry Griffin - Drums Richard Harper - Piano Jerome Hunter - Bass Paul Maddox - Drums Gil Markle - Producer Famoudou Don Moye - Conga, Drums Bern Nix - Guitar Billy Patterson - Performer Jumma Santos - Conga, Drums Rashied Sinan - Drums Sonelius Smith - Piano Henry Threadgill - Sax (Alto) Andy Vega - Percussion, Conga Azzedin Weston - Conga Harold White - Drums Chris C. White - Bass, Bass (Electric), Performer Benny Wilson - Bass Harold Smith & the Majestics - Drums Phillip Wilson - Percussion, Drums Arthur Bennett - Sax (Soprano) Karen Borca - Bassoon Leo Smith - Trumpet Andrei Strobert - Percussion, Multi Instruments Henry Letcher - Performer David Ivy Ware - Sax (Tenor) Sunny Murray & Untouchable Factor - Performer Flight to Sanity - Performer Mahujaa - Performer Leroy Seals - Bass (Electric), Performer Maono - Performer Don Moye - Percussion, Conga, Drums George Lewis - Trombone In a lotta ways this is the lost generation of jazz greats in terms of major label documentation of what they were doing. Many/most are still thriving of course, but the times had changed since the classic BN era. The pioneers no longer had the ears of the general public OR, probably more importantly, the major labels. Sorry to digress, but there actually IS a link to the discussion at hand here: I think Joe's fate in the mid 70's-mid 80's - relative "obscurity" followed by a "come back" - reflects very little on the quality of his art during that time (save maybe 1 or 2 failed experiments with electronics, I'll admit, but hey, you can't blame a guy for trying to eat!), but rather on the economic and social circumstances at play in that era. When I listen to the Milestone box, he was mostly at the top of his game, certainly as a tenor saxophonist. And so it was for so many others. Hell, I read some interviews even into the 90's where Joe was pretty pissed off at Verve for not recording his trio stuff the way that BN had done with STATE OF THE TENOR and the way the Red label from Italy did a bit later, contemporary with some of the Verve "concept" albums - fine as they are and as much as I enjoy them, it is a shame that someone of Henderson's stature was STILL being told basically "here's what we will record." Thus, the three million "tribute" and "concept" and "all-star" CDs on the market, and the general dearth of anything resembling working bands except on independents (a few major exceptions exist of course). Edited July 9, 2003 by DrJ Quote
GPfr Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 I'd say there's a definite need to have this puppy widely available again..... Fortinuately, I have it and...... HELL YES!!! Quote
BFrank Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 Let me add "Tetragon" and "The Kicker" from Joe's Milestone years. These are really first-rate sessions and WELL worth picking up. There's a 4CD Blue Note box that is now sadly OOP, but if you can find a copy it's well worth picking up. What's interesting is that it covers his whole career with BN including sideman session with LaRoca, Hutcherson, Tyner, etc. The Blue Note Years Quote
GPfr Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 I've said it before, and I'll say it again..... .....I'm not sure Joe ever turned in a sub-standard performance. A pianist friend of mine saw Joe live sometime around '93, '94, '95, somewhere around there in NYC. He told me that Joe wasn't "on." I asked "was it still good?" and he said "yeah, just not......"on."" He told the same thing to Jim McNeely and Jim said something very telling. Jim said something like "Hey, an off night for Joe is a night that we (as musicians, that is) is something that we only dream of!" Quote
GPfr Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 A belated discovery for me, but a TOTALLY outstanding performance: The mid-70s thru the mid-80s was a spotty decade for Joe, but this is one of the highlights. A strong, STRONG performance. I'm glad to hear that. For whaterver stupid-ass reason, I never bought this side.....I think it was a little pricey....whatever, it was still a stupid-ass reason. Jim, I'll do some checking, but is Barcelona still available? Quote
GPfr Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 OK, I found Barcelona at Amazon for....not much. Classified as "used." Anyone here bought something from these guys "used?" Is it in good condition, etc.? Quote
JSngry Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 (edited) Joe's lower profile during that time was mostly for "personal reasons", if you get my drift. That's not firsthand knowledge, but enough people I trust have told me, so I take it to have some basis in fact. Seems like he mostly stayed home in SF, taught privately, and "chilled out" . Mostly, not altogether. The decade in question was actually quite an exciting one - the music continued to move forward as the AACM, B.A.G., and other groups began to come to the forefront and get some national recognition, and, slowly but surely, an audience. The WILDFLOWERS session Tony mentions above might now in retrospect be seen as a "Jazz Woodstock", but at the time, it was a nifty document of how vital jazz still was as a CONTEMPORARY music, and not a repertory company in the making. The majors, except for Arista, weren't really in the game, but a LOT of indies (India Navigation, Black Saint/Soul Note, hatHut, IAI, etc.) featuring the newer developments were active and had reasonably good distribution. In short, the music felt alive and vital in a way and with a relevance that I really don't think it has today. It hurts me to say that too, because there is still some good, great even, new and original music being made today, but there's been so much redefining and reconceptualizing of what is and isn't "jazz" over the last 20 or so years that what once ws seen by many as natural (defiantly so, maybe, but still natural) has now been redefined as either radically wrong or radically right, and that ain't as fun of a game to be in. All told, and with the exception of Sonny Rollins' albums , I think the OVERALL state of the music was healthier in 1978 than it was in 1998, and DEFINITELY healthier than it was in 1988. Cats like Joe got some much deserved props during those years, but perhaps for the "wrong" reasons (at least wrong as far as keeping the music alive, moving, and developing. In another, very real sense, there's no "wrong" reason to celebrate a cat like Joe. But if a healthy dynamic is for there to be established vets thriving at the top and challenging WORTHY contenders bubbling underneath ready to strike at any given moment and take the turf on their OWN terms, the 80s and 90s saw a MOST unhealthy dynnamic as far as I'm concerned, at least in the "marketplace", which like it or not is where things get played out if they ever hope to become "mainstream"). I'm beginning to see signs of a return to sanity in the insane and inane "is it jazz?" bullshit of the last 20 years, but the problem with history is that making it takes time and I'm tired of waiting for something to happen that already should have. But I digress... Yeah, Joe was a MOTHERFUCKER! I love the cat, and always will. He died WAAAAAYYY too soon if you ask me, but, obviously, nobody did. God, you fucked up with this one. Edited July 9, 2003 by JSngry Quote
JSngry Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 OK, I found Barcelona at Amazon for....not much. Classified as "used." Anyone here bought something from these guys "used?" Is it in good condition, etc.? Never bought used from Amazon, Geoff. I got mine from Dusty Groove (the bastards!). They periodically get Enja stuff in at a reduced price (for whatever reason, seems to be used and resealed, but still in primo condition). From them you can buy with confidence. Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 (edited) Edited July 9, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 OK, back to more serious matters. I just discovered (on-line) that Joe is on two Richard Davis albums from 1977, with the same line-up on each album (despite their being on different labels)... Richard Davis: Way Out West (Muse, 1977, but it looks like it wasn't released until 1981?) [*]AMG REVIEW: Recorded with the same musicians and during the same two days as the Galaxy release Fancy Free, this LP covers a wide area. Bassist Richard Davis is heard in an unaccompanied solo on the brief "A Peace for Richard," on a duet with tenor saxophonist Joe Henderson for "On the Trail" (one of the session's highpoints), heading a trio with pianist Stanley Cowell and drummer Billy Cobham on "I'm Old Fashioned" and otherwise playing with a quintet that also includes Henderson, Cowell (who doubles on a dated sounding electric piano), Cobham and trumpeter Eddie Henderson; three songs have vocals by the obscure Dolly Hirota. Ranging from straightahead to some funky pop, this is an interesting if not essential release from the masterful bassist. — Scott Yanow Richard Davis: Fancy Free (Galaxy, 1977) [*]AMG REVIEW: It seems odd that this Galaxy LP was recorded at the same time as Way Out West for the rival Muse label. Bassist Richard Davis teams up with trumpeter Eddie Henderson, tenor saxophonist Joe Henderson, keyboardist Stanley Cowell and drummer Billy Cobham for five selections that are highlighted by "Silver's Serenade," "Nardis" and a rare cover version of Donald Byrd's "Fancy Free"; singer Dolly Hirota is featured on "I Still Love You, Baby." Overall this is the stronger of the sets recorded during the two-day period in 1977, an advanced and mostly straightahead effort. — Scott Yanow Yanow gives them both 3-stars each. Have either one been released on CD?? How are they?? Quote
JSngry Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 I have both on LP, and prefer the Muse date. Yanow's reviews describe the programs accurately. CD? Don't know. Both were produced by Ed Michel, and I suspect that he did the sessions on spec and shopped the tapes, which would explain the different labels. Quote
GPfr Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 OK, I found Barcelona at Amazon for....not much. Classified as "used." Anyone here bought something from these guys "used?" Is it in good condition, etc.? Never bought used from Amazon, Geoff. I got mine from Dusty Groove (the bastards!). They periodically get Enja stuff in at a reduced price (for whatever reason, seems to be used and resealed, but still in primo condition). From them you can buy with confidence. I don't know much about this outfit (Dusty Groove......bastards you call them). And, I don't have a credit card (a debit card, yes....and, as far as doing on-line transactions, makes me even MORE nervous!) What kind of problems (if any) have you had with these "bastards?" Will they accept alternate payment options (like a check, money order, etc.) what is their web address, dustygroove.com? Quote
Saint Vitus Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 (edited) OK, back to more serious matters. I just discovered (on-line) that Joe is on two Richard Davis albums from 1977, with the same line-up on each album (despite their being on different labels)... Richard Davis: Way Out West (Muse, 1977, but it looks like it wasn't released until 1981?) [*]AMG REVIEW: Recorded with the same musicians and during the same two days as the Galaxy release Fancy Free, this LP covers a wide area. Bassist Richard Davis is heard in an unaccompanied solo on the brief "A Peace for Richard," on a duet with tenor saxophonist Joe Henderson for "On the Trail" (one of the session's highpoints), heading a trio with pianist Stanley Cowell and drummer Billy Cobham on "I'm Old Fashioned" and otherwise playing with a quintet that also includes Henderson, Cowell (who doubles on a dated sounding electric piano), Cobham and trumpeter Eddie Henderson; three songs have vocals by the obscure Dolly Hirota. Ranging from straightahead to some funky pop, this is an interesting if not essential release from the masterful bassist. — Scott Yanow Richard Davis: Fancy Free (Galaxy, 1977) [*]AMG REVIEW: It seems odd that this Galaxy LP was recorded at the same time as Way Out West for the rival Muse label. Bassist Richard Davis teams up with trumpeter Eddie Henderson, tenor saxophonist Joe Henderson, keyboardist Stanley Cowell and drummer Billy Cobham for five selections that are highlighted by "Silver's Serenade," "Nardis" and a rare cover version of Donald Byrd's "Fancy Free"; singer Dolly Hirota is featured on "I Still Love You, Baby." Overall this is the stronger of the sets recorded during the two-day period in 1977, an advanced and mostly straightahead effort. — Scott Yanow Yanow gives them both 3-stars each. Have either one been released on CD?? How are they?? Some tracks on the Muse was compiled on a 32Jazz release, Forest Flowers. It doesn't appear the Galaxy session has appeared on CD. Edited July 9, 2003 by Saint Vitus Quote
Saint Vitus Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 (edited) The further info on the session is at Ed Michel's site. According to Michel, the session was recorded for Galaxy but a contractual "misunderstanding" led to a part of the session being issued on Muse. Edited July 9, 2003 by Saint Vitus Quote
brownie Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 Don't want to turn this into a political thread, but wasn't Joe Henderson's visibility on the US jazz scene boosted when he was invited at Bill Clinton's 1993 inauguration in Washington? Photos of Clinton and Henderson getting into a tenor duel were widely circulated at the time. This surely helped his career and made his name known beyond the jazz circles. Doubt that any jazz was played at W. Bush's inaugural. Quote
Saint Vitus Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 Lush Life was released in February, 1992. Henderson's "return" had little to do with Clinton. Quote
brownie Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 Very aware of that. I was speaking about his visibility beyond the jazz circles. Quote
JSngry Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 (edited) OK, I found Barcelona at Amazon for....not much. Classified as "used." Anyone here bought something from these guys "used?" Is it in good condition, etc.? Never bought used from Amazon, Geoff. I got mine from Dusty Groove (the bastards!). They periodically get Enja stuff in at a reduced price (for whatever reason, seems to be used and resealed, but still in primo condition). From them you can buy with confidence. I don't know much about this outfit (Dusty Groove......bastards you call them). And, I don't have a credit card (a debit card, yes....and, as far as doing on-line transactions, makes me even MORE nervous!) What kind of problems (if any) have you had with these "bastards?" Will they accept alternate payment options (like a check, money order, etc.) what is their web address, dustygroove.com? I call them bastards because I seem to be unable to visit their site without dropping more bucks than I'd like! They're totally honorable, and have numerous payment options. http://www.dustygroove.com Edited July 9, 2003 by JSngry Quote
Joe Posted July 9, 2003 Report Posted July 9, 2003 If I could voice one reservation or even regret about Joe's Verve output it's that, with the notable exception of SO NEAR SO FAR, he was often surrounded on those dates by either much younger, much more callow players (Stephen Scott, Christian McBride, audibly in awe of / supplication to him, or by "professionals" who are in the business of being proficient, sympathetic and versatile (Hancock, DeJohnette), sometimes too much so. So that some of that sparring excitement that is always present on the best (IMHO) Joe Henderson recordings -- best to to even try and talk about his live performances here -- is missing. You can hear what I'm talking about on INNER URGE and OUR THING, on PTAH THE EL-DAOUD, on UNITY, on CAPE VERDEAN BLUES, on THE REAL MCCOY, on BLACK FIRE, on RELAXIN' AT CAMARILLO, and, I think, on this record, one of the finest from Joe's final (sigh) decade: Norris' harmonic sensibility is just what Henderson needs to really spin off some intricate, intelligent, swinging, totally compelling solos. Finally, I see that the Palo Alto date with Mal Waldron, David Friesen and Billy Higgins -- ONE ENTRANCE, MANY EXITS -- is about to be reissued on CD. Opinions? Quote
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