Who axed Woody for Wynton ?

[johnagrandy]

Does anyone know who made the final decision on axing Woody from Columbia .... in favor of a certain younger cat ....

Not that I'm going to write the guy a scolding letter or anything ... just trying to add together a few other pieces and this one is causing problems.

Anyone got the real story ? I seem to remember that a certain jazz critic or educator was involved in some manner.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Dr. George Butler was Wynton's "in" at Columbia.

Mike

[bertrand]

He also was responsible for the pathetic 'Blue Note hits a new note' campaign in the 70s which resulted in the release of some unbelievably crummy records. 'Blue Note hits a low note' would have been a better slogan. Didn't he also produce some of the weakest mid-80s Miles albums?

We should make a laundry list of all of the ills the good doctor has inflicted upon the Jazz world. What misguided institute of higher learning awarded him a doctorate, anyway?

Bertrand.

Edited September 9, 2005 by bertrand

[Christiern]

"Dr." Butler was given his position at Columbia because they felt a need to hire a black person in a high position--pure and simple. He quickly became somewhat of a joke within the company, because it was clear that he was clueless when it came to music. I think the tin-eared lawyers who took the reins at Columbia were impressed with Butler's dilution of Blue Note--seeing it as a cash register-ringing commercial move. Personally, I shared the more professional opinion that he was an idiot.

At a cocktail party for the Heath Brothers, he came over to me and told me how much he enjoyed my radio programs and how the company appreciated the fact that I played their "product."

I had not been on the air for six years, and he seemed oblivious to the fact that I had spent at ;east a couple of years producing records for his label--in fact, my work had garnered Columbia a Grammy or two. This guy was strictly a wall decoration, but he had the power to make uninformed decisions--which he did. I don't know how instrumental he was in dumping Woody Shaw (who was not in good health, BTW), but I do know that he and a pushy PR woman "created" the myth Wynton was Jazz's salvation. Together, they turned a young musician of some promise into a "star" whose talent was not commensurate with that status--unfortunately, Wynton himself soon began to believe the hype and whatever promise he had shown in the early days with Blakey dissipated as he became the rigid, over-growling caricature we know today. A man whose recognition is based on a paid position rather than on musical achievement.

This (the axing of Shaw) may well be a case of "the Butler did it," but I can't say for sure. From what I observed on the spot, I had the impression that they groomed Wynton so fast, because they needed a replacement for Miles. This sort of thing happens when music people are replaced by attorneys and accountants.

[jazzbo]

Seems to me he made money for the company. Which is all the company cares about, ultimately. Wynton was a novelty act star, in a way that Woody would never have been. Those Miles albums did quite well, may have turned away some old fans but brought neophytes into the mystique.

[JSngry]

Yeah, I always wondered about Columbia and the "next Miles" thing. They had Freddie for a while (mostly commercial work, sure, but was the music the point or was having a high-profile, iconic, African-American - as opposed to Maynard Ferguson - trumpet star?), then Woody, then, finally, Wynton. And then Miles again.

[Dr. Rat]

Yeah, I always wondered about Columbia and the "next Miles" thing. They had Freddie for a while (mostly commercial work, sure, but was the music the point or was having a high-profile, iconic, African-American - as opposed to Maynard Ferguson -  trumpet star?), then Woody, then, finally, Wynton. And then Miles again.

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How much promo budget got spent on Woody Shaw as opposed to Davis or Marsalis?

--eric

[Christiern]

Lon, what makes you think Wynton made money for Columbia?

[jazzbo]

I don't know anything specific. . . he probably made more than Woody did, that would be my guess.

As far as I can tell (with no insider connection at all and from hindsight and from impressions at the time), Columbia didn't really care much about the quality or the nature of the music as long as it could bring in dollars and for those reasons Butler suited their purposes.

[JSngry]

Yeah, I always wondered about Columbia and the "next Miles" thing. They had Freddie for a while (mostly commercial work, sure, but was the music the point or was having a high-profile, iconic, African-American - as opposed to Maynard Ferguson -  trumpet star?), then Woody, then, finally, Wynton. And then Miles again.

←

How much promo budget got spent on Woody Shaw as opposed to Davis or Marsalis?

--eric

←

I remember that Woody seemed to be getting a pretty good push for his first three Columbia sides - good ads, in-store displays, ample airplay, etc. And then it seemed as if it all stopped with 1980's For Sure. Why, I have no idea. Maybe sales weren't in line with outlay, maybe Woody's personal situation make him less attarctive as a long-term investment, I don't know. But for those first three albums, Woody was as "hot" as a property of his leanings could be.

[JSngry]

What else I remember about Butler at Columbia was that it was during his reign that Columbia signed a lot of the more commercially-oriented "refugees" from CTI and the "New Note" Blue Note - Bob James & Bobbi Humphrey spring to mind most readily. Bobby Hutcherson came, too, but that was a little different, at least as far as musical intent went, even if the records that he, Cedar Walton, and the Heath Brothers made for the label were still unapologetically slick.

And McCoy made that Looking Out side in 1982, which at the time sent me into about as deep a depression as I've ever been in. Thanks, Executive Producer Doctor Death!

[Christiern]

I don't know anything specific. . . he probably made more than Woody did, that would be my guess.

As far as I can tell (with no insider connection at all and from hindsight and from impressions at the time), Columbia didn't really care much about the quality or the nature of the music as long as it could bring in dollars and for those reasons Butler suited their purposes.

←

He was paid more than Woody, but his record sales were very disappointing--I would be surprised if the label broke even, but Wynton hype certainly generated publicity for Columbia, not to mention a good job for him. Columbia dropped Wynton because he wasn't making money for them. I know that you like his work, but not enough jazz record buyers did.

[montg]

Yeah, I always wondered about Columbia and the "next Miles" thing. They had Freddie for a while (mostly commercial work, sure, but was the music the point or was having a high-profile, iconic, African-American - as opposed to Maynard Ferguson - trumpet star?), then Woody, then, finally, Wynton. And then Miles again

It seems we now have 'original Miles' in perpetuity...no need to sign new artists and discover a new Miles when the old one can be recycled over and over and over

[Aggie87]

Somehow I can't see a Wynton metal spine box set series like the ones they've done for Miles.

Even that WM VV box was deeply discounted to start with, wasn't it? I would assume this was done to artificially boost interest? Seems like it was available from BMG for $15.99 from day one.

[jazzbo]

I'm not here to defend Wynton, at all. And I like some of his work, the stuff that didn't sell.

I just think that Columbia probably was happy with Butler and he was following the memoes closely. Could be wrong.

[Dr. Rat]

Yeah, I always wondered about Columbia and the "next Miles" thing. They had Freddie for a while (mostly commercial work, sure, but was the music the point or was having a high-profile, iconic, African-American - as opposed to Maynard Ferguson -  trumpet star?), then Woody, then, finally, Wynton. And then Miles again.

←

How much promo budget got spent on Woody Shaw as opposed to Davis or Marsalis?

--eric

←

I remember that Woody seemed to be getting a pretty good push for his first three Columbia sides - good ads, in-store displays, ample airplay, etc. And then it seemed as if it all stopped with 1980's For Sure. Why, I have no idea. Maybe sales weren't in line with outlay, maybe Woody's personal situation make him less attarctive as a long-term investment, I don't know. But for those first three albums, Woody was as "hot" as a property of his leanings could be.

←

Thanks.

--eric

[johnagrandy]

This is very depressing stuff. One of the greatest musical minds of the twentieth century nudged into a death spiral by some poser doofus.

This strengthens my belief that the future of commercial jazz recordings has got to be artist-centric websites with artist-friendly delivery partners providing the technical and shipping infrastructure (such as Charlie Hunter and Fast Atmosphere).

I will never buy a CD from any giant such as Amazon or any chain music store if I can buy it directly from the artist's website.

This artist-centric uptrend, if sustained, will keep people like the good doctor out of the picture forever.

[Spontooneous]

And now, a short and far from complete list of artists who were pushed off Columbia yet were not pushed into a "death spiral":

Charles Mingus, Ornette Coleman, Bobby Hutcherson, McCoy Tyner, Cedar Walton, Benny Golson, and several guys named Marsalis.

After Columbia, Woody landed at Bruce Lundvall's Elektra/Musician, which had great distribution and pretty good promotion.

The "death spiral" thing seems over-the-top.

[Chuck Nessa]

Bruce Lundvall's exit from Columbia had some effect. He went to Elektra and Dexter and Woody followed.

[Christiern]

You are absolutely right, Chuck, but with a clown like "Dr." George Butler in place and set on pushing Wynton beyond all reason, Woody's future at the label was bleak.

[JSngry]

Bruce Lundvall's exit from Columbia had some effect. He went to Elektra and Dexter and Woody followed.

←

As did Max.

[johnagrandy]

The "death spiral" thing seems over-the-top.

←

How much have you studied Woody's later years?

It's not a strictly deductive assertion, such as the type properly used in a court of law, I did not mean it as such.

However, Woody being discarded by a major label for very questionable reasons at the absolute peak years of his musical creative and physical abilities had a powerful negative effect on his spirit and self-perception.

He never had a regular label again, he never led a regular working group again , he never had real money again.

If you dig up all the interviews , and you listen to all the music that followed , including all the bootlegs , and you talk to the right people and learn the real (really really sad) story of what happenned to the man , how his economic and artistic status influenced his pyche and what that led to ....... then you might not think it's such a stretch.

It's the saddest story in the history of music.

Please note that I wrote "nudged" , not "pushed" or "shoved".

It would not be the first time that a clueless dilettante had a profoundly destructive impact on humanity. Take a look at the brain-damaged idiot who leads our country.

Edited September 26, 2005 by johnagrandy

[JSngry]

He never had a regular label again,

←

Not true - Michael Cuscuna took him on at Muse and released a series of fine, if more "traditional" albums. The cover photos, though, were disturbing at the ime, and have become moreso now that the reality has become better known.

Also, although I'm not looking to "blame the victim", far from it, but Woody didn't do himself any favors either in his "personal habits". He was, from everything I hear (and a very little bit I saw firsthand), a very complicated guy whose "indulgences" went beyond recreational, and which no doubt created more problems for him than they allieviated. His "natural" mental state didn't need any more amping up, dig?

The Woody Shaw story is one of jazz' greatest tragedies, imo, but like all epic tragedies, the final tragedy lies in how the protagonist handled the cumulative adversity. And again, I'm in no way seeking to "blame" him, or to downplay the very real impact that the CBS bullshit had on his psyche. Nobody gets off the hook for their role in that fiasco. But I am, however, left with the distinct impression that Woody Shaw was in many ways, some of them profound, a "tragedy waiting to happen", if you know what I mean.

I guess the lesson to be learned is that even the mightiest (and Woody at his personal and musical peak certainly qualifies as one of the mightiest, imo) have weaknesses, weaknesses which under the right combination of external circumstances and internal turmoil can prove fatal.

Save them while they can be saved, if they'll let you.

[johnagrandy]

Muse was Woody's lifeblood. He broke through with Muse. His greatest non-Columbia session recordings are all on Muse. And Muse stepped in and kept him alive in the final years of his ultimately dark journey.

But I'm not sure the 80s Muse sessions constitute a regular label contract -- even in the world of lower expectations jazz musicians expect from such.

There were only 3 session dates:

1985 Setting Standards

1987 Solid

1988 Imagination

The other post-Columbia Muse issues

1981 The Iron Men

1983 In The Beginning

were previously recorded material.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there was neither a working band nor tours associated with any of these albums.

More importantly, I do not see Woody as a tragedy waiting to happen. Rather, I see him as overcoming potential tragedies many many times -- tragedies that would have broken down all but the strongest.

He was from poor background. He was black. He was doomed to go blind from an early age (retinitis pigmentosa). He was diabetic. He came of age in an era during which almost every jazz great fixed or had done so (on a sidenote, it's interesting that relatively few jazz greats have DOA OD'd compared to rock stars).

It's hard for me to see this as an indulgence. When most of the world sees what you throw your heart and soul into as "making a bunch of annoying noise" and you can't make the rent because you're a genius, I'm not surprised if you want an out.

He refused to compromise his vision of human communication in any manner, and he paid the commercial price for it -- even within the strict realm of serious commercial jazz. As Turre puts it, he invented his own musical language.

In the alternate context of fusion which made cats like Turrentine and Byrd and Hubbard and Shorter and Hancock so much bread (at least for awhile), he took a complete pass, and even went on the attack against the trend. Maybe an electric Woody wouldn't have worked anyway ... but as a sideman he definitely could have picked up his fair share of the relatively massive cash floating around.

He spoke his mind on those matters he considered uncompromisable, and he made enemies because of it. He was badly betrayed by at least a couple of friends and colleagues (that I know of).

He was known as being generous to a severe fault ... an adversity of character that also ultimately must be overcome (as he spoke of in a mid 80s interview).

In the final years of his life, is it surprising that perhaps the most brilliant improviser of his era, relegated to wandering anonymity just as serious jazz was recovering and becoming a respected, decently-paying profession, is it surprising that this man, also facing a death sentence, couldn't stay charged-up with the courage of the past ?

Some of you who personally knew the man probably know a lot more than I do. I just sat under his bell as a misfit teenager.

But it's hard for me to believe that the vast majority of what was going on in his psyche was not the inevitable outcome of what this world has in store for anyone who made the uncompromising spiritual decisions that he did.

I wish I could hold myself to the same standards.

[JSngry]

All of what you say is true, but the fact remains - Woody off coke would've stood a much better chance of survivng (mentally and physically, but especially mentally) than Woody on coke, which is the Woody that eventually fucked himself up. And no, that's not necessarily true of everybody...

Yes, it's a "demon", and no fault is to be found for those unable to conquer their demons. Sometimes, sometimes, the worst enemy lies within. With all the very real enemies without, if you can't conquer the one within, you don't stand a chance. The bastards are out to get you, and any help you can offer them just makes their job that much easier. See if they try and stop you...

That's a tough lesson to learn, but if you don't learn it...