black saint/soul note

[Chuck Nessa]

Perhaps, although I found some interesting pieces of dialogue with close listening... I did notice that it takes an immense amount of prodding to break Max out of a certain groove (even here)--he doesn't "follow" the sax like, say, Rashied Ali does on Interstellar Space. Regardless, I think the two play emphatically enough to prevent this one from sounding like a "staid"/cold duo album.

I enjoy both Roach/Braxton dialogues as well as the Shepps and others. I just think Max was always a problem for "the other guys".

[montg]

I just think Max was always a problem for "the other guys".

[Chuck Nessa]

I just think Max was always a problem for "the other guys".

I see Max as "THE other guy" on this recording. I see Mingus as the"outfoxed" guy on this recording. I see Dukie as the MF.

[Kalo]

Max is an amazing drummer but "iffy" partner.

Ask Abbey Lincoln about that.

I've always loved the Roach/Taylor Historic Concerts on Soul Note. Over the years I've found it to be literally inspirational. Whenever I was struggling with a particularly difficult writing assignment, I'd put this on and find myself inspired, perhaps because this music externalized the tension I was feeling and allowed me to go beyond it. I love it on its own, too. I haven't listened to it in years; time to spin it again (mine's on vinyl).

I just think Max was always a problem for "the other guys".

I see Max as "THE other guy" on this recording. I see Mingus as the"outfoxed" guy on this recording. I see Dukie as the MF.

Nice take on this, Chuck. Whatever else anyone else thinks about this, and I love it, it really captures an intensely present dialogue (argument?) between the principals.

And I agree that Duke is the MF! And not just on this.

It just struck me that Money Jungle (great title!) is so timeless in its way, that it would not have sounded at all out of place as a Black Saint/Soul Note date 20 or 30 years after the fact. (Just to tie this recent digression back into the main thread.)

[Guest akanalog]

i have really been enjoying andrew cyrille's "the navigator". it is a great album i think.

nice songwriting and is almost too inside at points!

i still don't have a total feel for cyrille's personality behid the kit, but i like what i hear even if i don't always know it is him at first.

[Late]

Up!

I've been compiling a shopping list of Black Saint and Soul Notes, and thought I'd poll the board for further recommendations. Here's the list so far:

1. Sam Rivers-Don Pullen: Capricorn Rising

2. Max Roach: Scott Free

3. Frank Lowe: The Flam

4. Andrew Hill: Strange Serenade

5. Joseph Jarman-Don Moye-Don Pullen: The Magic Triangle

6. Joseph Jarman-Don Moye: Black Paladins

7. Muhal Richard Abrams: Hearinga Suite

8. Andrew Cyrille: Metamusicians' Stomp

9. Andrew Hill: Verona Rag

10. Marcello Melis: The New Village on the Left

11. Max Roach-Cecil Taylor: Historic Concerts

12. Don Pullen: Milano Strut

13. Rob Brown: High Wire

What titles would you add? Delete? Prioritize? To complicate things, I have a fair amount from these labels already. Rather than list them all, I'll just mention some names that are already in the collection:

• Steve Lacy

• Jimmy Lyons

• Julius Hemphill

• Henry Threadgill

• Billy Harper

• Anthony Braxton

• David Murray

• Ellery Eskelin

• Tim Berne

• Bill Dixon

Judging from that list immediately above, I guess I'd say my ears gravitate toward the saxophone — and I always welcome "out" sounds (while generally of an acoustic nature).

Recommend away! Thanks.

Edited April 20, 2006 by Late

[ep1str0phy]

Timo's Message is a classic addition to the John Tchicai discography. Very rhythm-heavy (in typical Tchicai style), but always sensitive, always honest. Inside/outside, but listenable for all parties. A favorite.

[Late]

Listening to Blu, Blu, Blu right now. Patience Higgins — woo hoo!

[Hot Ptah]

My favorite Muhal Richard Abrams albums from these labels are "Blues Forever" and "Mama and Daddy".

[Guy Berger]

I already recommended it in this thread, but Jon Jang's Two Flowers on a Stem (w/David Murray & James Newton) is really nice.

Guy

[Nate Dorward]

Up!

I've been compiling a shopping list of Black Saint and Soul Notes, and thought I'd poll the board for further recommendations. Here's the list so far:

1. Sam Rivers-Don Pullen: Capricorn Rising

2. Max Roach: Scott Free

3. Frank Lowe: The Flam

4. Andrew Hill: Strange Serenade

5. Joseph Jarman-Don Moye-Don Pullen: The Magic Triangle

6. Joseph Jarman-Don Moye: Black Paladins

7. Muhal Richard Abrams: Hearinga Suite

8. Andrew Cyrille: Metamusicians' Stomp

9. Andrew Hill: Verona Rag

10. Marcello Melis: The New Village on the Left

11. Max Roach-Cecil Taylor: Historic Concerts

12. Don Pullen: Milano Strut

13. Rob Brown: High Wire

What titles would you add? Delete? Prioritize? To complicate things, I have a fair amount from these labels already. Rather than list them all, I'll just mention some names that are already in the collection:

• Steve Lacy

• Jimmy Lyons

• Julius Hemphill

• Henry Threadgill

• Billy Harper

• Anthony Braxton

• David Murray

• Ellery Eskelin

• Tim Berne

• Bill Dixon

Judging from that list immediately above, I guess I'd say my ears gravitate toward the saxophone — and I always welcome "out" sounds (while generally of an acoustic nature).

Recommend away! Thanks.

I'd say ROVA is an obvious omission. Plus Cecil Taylor's output on the label.

[Late]

Thanks for the reminder, Guy — I'm adding Jang to the list. From reading about it in the Penguin guide, Tianenman! looks interesting. Anyone heard that one? Jang has at least one more on Black Saint (or Soul Note), but I can't now remember the title.

[Late]

Nate — yup. I don't have any ROVA on those labels, though do have some Larry Ochs sides. I have one Taylor (For Olim), and have always meant to get Winged Serpents. I think I might go for the Roach-Taylor collaboration first though.

[Late]

Also adding the Tchicai, Ikiru!

[ep1str0phy]

Also adding the Tchicai, Ikiru!

Hope you dig it (well, I've done my seize-the-day proselytizing for the day... thank you, Kurosawa). Again--it's a nice middle-ground between Tchicai's more beat-laden efforts and the freebopish stuff of old (e.g., NYC5). It reminds me of the SteepleChases, sort of (same sort of feel, but warmer).

[LAL]

Thanks for the reminder, Guy — I'm adding Jang to the list. From reading about it in the Penguin guide, Tianenman! looks interesting. Anyone heard that one? Jang has at least one more on Black Saint (or Soul Note), but I can't now remember the title.

Re Jang: I just got Tiananmen! and Two Flowers On A Stem - haven't listened to them yet, but if they're anything like a third Soul Note title, The Immigrant Suite No.1, you're in for a treat. Like the mix of traditional Chinese instruments and free-jazz (minus the poetry recital).

[Д.Д.]

Sam Rivers-Don Pullen: Capricorn Rising

As I mentioned elsewhere, this one is very weak (but I'm not particularly a fan of either Rivers or Pullen, so...). Pullen/Moye Milano Strut is better, but far from essential. I'd suggest Pullen/Adams discs instead.

I would highly recommend Wayne Horwitz - Butch Morris - William Parker trio disc (forgot the title) - dark brooding music. What We Live (Ochs-Ellis-RObinson trio) discs are excellent as well.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Д.Д.

[Late]

Thanks D.D. — I'll make a note of all those.

I've been checking out sound samples online (Amazon seems to have a lot), and totally passed over some titles that are now on "the list." I added:

• Charles Gayle: "Consecration"

• Pullen, Freeman, Hopkins, Battle: "Warriors"

• Joseph Jarman: "Earth Passage"

I listened to "Milano Strut," but can't say I was immediately taken by it — still, with a sound sample you don't get much. Nevertheless, I am a Don Pullen fan, and some titles take time to grow on you.

Damn, there's so much good music on these labels. I thought I had a fair amount ... but was (fortunately or unfortunately) mistaken!

I wish I had jumped more squarely on the cybermusicsurplus wagon when it rode through town. I only scampered alongside it for a few blocks ...

[Alexander Hawkins]

Of those three, I only know 'Warriors'. The music I really enjoy (I too am a big Don Pullen fan!). I think - and it's a shame because he plays wonderfully - Fred Hopkins sounds horrible on the recording, however (IIRC - I haven't listened to it for a while). This is completely incidental, obviously, and shouldn't distract anyone!

[Guest akanalog]

i would recommend "warriors" and even more so, "the sixth sense" (quintet w. donald harrison and olu dara) as pullen albums to get over the ones you had listed.

if you like saxaphone and a little out, i would also recommend julius hemphill's "flat out jump suite" as being a good one. i liked it a lot more than "raw materials and residuals", though not as much as the hard to find "dogon A.D.", which isn't on black saint/soul note anyways.

archie shepp's "a sea of faces" is also a good one.

and i would encourage you to check out all the andrew cyrille albums from the bands w. ted daniel and de geronimo on bass. i know you had one listed. one of the albums is only trumpet-ed, no sax, but those are three ("metamusicians stomp" "special people" "the navigator") sweet albums.

[AmirBagachelles]

I think David Murray's BS records represent some of his best, and some of the label's best. Did anybody mention the pair of Mal Waldron discs w/ Woody Shaw?

[paul secor]

Don't think that Andrew Cyrille's X-Man has been mentioned, so I'll do that. It's a quartet record, with James Newton, Alex Tit Pascal, Anthony Cox, and Cyrille. I like Cyrille's Good To Go, also with Newton, a bit more, but they're both good listens.

Also want to mention a Black Saint recording I just picked up, Henry Threadgill's Song Out of My Trees. I've only listened to it twice, so I haven't lived with it much. Threadgill is sort of hit and miss with me, but I'd put this one under the hit category. Eclectic might be one of the words I'd use to describe his recordings, and this one is even more eclectic than the other Threadgills I've heard. It almost seems as if he decided to make this a set of compositions/performances - and they are as much compositions as performances - in fact, Threadgill plays on only three of the five cuts - with as many types of musics/sounds as he could muster. There's a kind of jazz/rock/funk piece; an Ayleresque piece with Threadgill's alto, strings, harpsichord, accordian, and voice; a piece for piano, three guitars, and bass guitar; a composition with Ted Daniel on hunting horns, along with three guitars, and bass guitar; and an organ quartet with Threadgill, Amina Claudine Myers, guitar, and drums. Song Out of My Trees is a Black Saint that's been unfairly overlooked - it's probably not a record that will appeal to someone with mainstream tastes - but if you're looking for something different and good, you might want to give it a try.

[ep1str0phy]

Another post in the label thread that refuses to die:

I just (as in less than an hour ago) picked up a copy of Anthony Braxton: Four Compositions (Quartet) 1983. I'm enjoying it quite a bit. This is the acid, erudite, cryptic Braxton that will always confound the lay critic (I particularly enjoy Nathan Bush's bewildered musings on AMG)--a few smatterings of true melee, but the atmosphere is generally brainy, strange (in the best sense of the word). Which is not to say that there isn't the right measure of explosiveness... Everything is astonishingly calculated, but consistently 'out'; there's a tremendous amount of thematic/motivic continuity amidst all the emotional schizophrenia (and a lot of beauty, if you're willing to look for it). It's recordings like this that remind me just how wide the BS/SN oeuvre is.

Edited April 21, 2006 by ep1str0phy

[Late]

Tower has some Black Saint (and Soul Note) titles in stock for $13.59 right now — including Billy Harper's Black Saint! Add a coupon code from the current Tower thread, and the price goes down even further. Carpe diem!

[Late]

Listening to David Murray's Ming right now. Other fans of this one? It seems to have really held up over time — whereas a lot of other albums recorded in 1980 now sound dated.

Stanley Crouch wrote some pretty enthusiastic liner notes for this one. It makes me wonder: What if a then nineteen year-old Wynton Marsalis had been shepherded into David Murray's circle at the time? Murray's only six years older than Marsalis, and the music on Ming really isn't that "out" — how might "jazz" as we know it now be different (if at all)?