Muhammad Ali Thread

[Soulstation1]

ali's "when we were kings" is on espn classic tonite.

check it out if you can. it's also out on dvd.

nobody will ever match ali's showmanship.

ss1

i want a copy of the ali/superman comic book.

Edited July 8, 2003 by Soulstation1

[Guest Mnytime]

I was at both the Rumble and the Thrilla.

When We Were Kings is excellent!!!! Though honestly I wish there was more of Ali and less of the music portion.

Edited July 7, 2003 by Mnytime

[jazzypaul]

Yeah, because all of that damn music is so terrible...as a boxing junkie, I'll watch anything to do with Ali, Frazier, Louis, either of the sugar rays...

[connoisseur series500]

  Mnytime said:

I was at both the Rumble and the Thrilla.

When We Were Kings is excellent!!!! Though honestly I wish there was more of Ali and less of the music portion.

Wow! Mny, you saw the fights live in Zaire and Manila? That's incredible.

[Guest Mnytime]

If Foreman didn't get the cut during sparring that delayed the fight I wouldn't have been there for the Rumble.

The Rumble was a good fight but the Thrilla was War. It was around 200 degrees in there or at least it felt that hot. I can't imagine being under the lights in the ring and than having to fight someone like Joe Frazier.

Edited July 7, 2003 by Mnytime

[connoisseur series500]

I remember Foreman as being the most fearsome fighter of my generation. He was big and he was powerful and opponents melted against him in the ring. He seemed surly and not comfortable with the Press.

Today of course he's a lovable teddy bear, but he was the scariest fighter since Liston. Later on Tyson took over that distinction.

[Jazzmoose]

My first ever sports bet was on the first Ali-Frazier fight. Two whole dollars in the days of one dollar allowances; talk about livin' large!! Of course, it could have been worse...I could have put the money on Frazier, won, and headed on to a lifetime gambling problem I suppose.

[connoisseur series500]

If, if, if, if, if, iffffff only Ali would have retired after the Foreman fight in the peak of his glory, perhaps we would still have this very articulate man with us today still making us laugh and enlightening us. Of couse, all the fight fans would have been clamoring for more fights, but I think the film said that Ali fought another 22 fights after Foreman?!!!

Yes, I know Ali is still with us, but it just isn't the same with that horrible illness boxing has inflicted on him.

A postscript on Ali: as great as this man is and as delightful and courageous and inspiring as he was and still is, he still behaves like a cad when confronted with Joe Frazier. Ali hurled many hurtful epithets at Joe and he never seemed to let up over the years. In my opinion, this is the only black mark on the man, but it has diminished him quite a bit.

[Guest Mnytime]

  connoisseur series500 said:

I remember Foreman as being the most fearsome fighter of my generation.  He was big and he was powerful and opponents melted against him in the ring.  He seemed surly and not comfortable with the Press. 

Today of course he's a lovable teddy bear, but he was the scariest fighter since Liston.  Later on Tyson took over that distinction.

Ali thought Shavers hit harder than Foreman did. I really have never cared for Foreman and think he is basically doing his version of Ali now. Though in his case it's all clown and nothing of intelligence behind it.

I never got the impression from my discussions with Ali that he thinks Foreman hit as hard as everyone thought.

I think certain fighters just fit Foreman's style of fighting better like Frazier, which made him appear to be more fearsome than he was.

Same thing with Liston. I think his rep as being a Mob enforcer added to his supposed fearsomeness. He beat Patterson but that really was not impressive to me. Otherwise it was a bunch of bums along the line of Marcino another highly overrated fighter. He fought a total of 7 times as Champion and 3 or 4 of those fights against guys in their late 30's and way past their prime. Even than he had trouble with them in all but 1 fight. He took a lot of punishment to deliver his punches.

If you really watch the Rumble you will see that most of Foreman's punches were to Ali's arms. All that stuff by Norman Mailer about Ali swaying one way or another was pure Fiction.

The Frazier way of fighting really is perfect for someone like Foreman.

Now one of the better Foreman fights was against Ron Lyle fight was 4 rounds of pure bombs being thrown by both fighters. With both fighters going down before Foreman finally stopped it.

By the way for the Rumble they brought the wrong size ropes for the size of ring they were using. That is why the ropes gave way so much to the point at times it looked like Ali was almost laying down.

Edited July 7, 2003 by Mnytime

[Guest Mnytime]

  connoisseur series500 said:

A postscript on Ali: as great as this man is and as delightful and courageous and inspiring as he was and still is, he still behaves like a cad when confronted with Joe Frazier.  Ali hurled many hurtful epithets at Joe and he never seemed to let up over the years.  In my opinion, this is the only black mark on the man, but it has diminished him quite a bit.

That's because Frazier still calls him Cassius Clay a good amount of the time. Not that Ali is an angel but calling him Cassius Clay is the quickest way to anger him. He punished two fighters in the ring for calling him Clay. He carried Patterson for most of their first fight in 1965 to beat the hell out of him. This when he could have ended it anytime he wanted early on. The whole time while Ali was doing it he was asking Patterson what his name (Muhammad Ali) was than beating on him some more. But letting off enough to make sure the beating lasted for the 12 rounds before he finally ended it.

I agree he should have retired after the Rumble. He was already starting to slur his speech slightly and wasn't talking in that rapid-fire way he did before. But he really should have stopped after Thrilla. After that I don't think he really was the same.

Unlike the Rumble were most of the punches were to his arms or side in the Thrilla his head took a lot of big hits from Frazier. Next time they show that fight and show the interview after the fight listen to how he is speaking right after that fight.

Edited July 7, 2003 by Mnytime

[connoisseur series500]

I do recall Ali claiming that Ernie Shavers hit harder than Foreman, and Shavers was indeed a huge puncher, but he wasn't as fearsome as Foreman in his prime. Foreman walked through everybody including Kenny Norton and Joe Frazier. In the meantime, Shavers was being manhandled by average fighters like Jerry Quarry.

Unlike you, I really do like George Foreman. I think that his friendly personality came out in his comeback, and it is genuine. He is extremely gracious when discussing his old rivals--Ali, Frazier, and Norton. His comeback as an elderly boxer really proved how great a fighter he was. He was tough and competitive even in the fights he lost. I've now forgotten who he lost to, but I remember him hanging tough even as a 40-50 year old. Remarkable athlete.

Anyway, for someone who no longer watches or likes boxing, I sure do talk about it a lot!

[Guest Mnytime]

Ali had 14 more fights after Rumble and 10 after Thrilla. In those 10 included at least 4 good to very good fighters, Norton, Shavers, Holmes, Berbick.

[Guest Mnytime]

  connoisseur series500 said:

I do recall Ali claiming that Ernie Shavers hit harder than Foreman, and Shavers was indeed a huge puncher, but he wasn't as fearsome as Foreman in his prime. Foreman walked through everybody including Kenny Norton and Joe Frazier. In the meantime, Shavers was being manhandled by average fighters like Jerry Quarry.

Unlike you, I really do like George Foreman. I think that his friendly personality came out in his comeback, and it is genuine. He is extremely gracious when discussing his old rivals--Ali, Frazier, and Norton. His comeback as an elderly boxer really proved how great a fighter he was. He was tough and competitive even in the fights he lost. I've now forgotten who he lost to, but I remember him hanging tough even as a 40-50 year old. Remarkable athlete.

Anyway, for someone who no longer watches or likes boxing, I sure do talk about it a lot!

Like I said those that Foreman beat fit his style perfectly. Shavers hit harder he just wasn't a Champion level fighter is all.

In regards to Foreman now I think it's all about the Benjamin's. As the big Teddy Bear he has been able to cash in on a lot of money.

By the way, the whole thing about calling all 4 or 5 of his sons George really is strange.

[connoisseur series500]

  Mnytime said:

Ali had 14 more fights after Rumble and 10 after Thrilla. In those 10 included at least 4 good to very good fighters, Norton, Shavers, Holmes, Berbick.

Shavers gave him a hard time and Norton always gave him a very tough fight; in fact, I do believe that Norton actually should have been declared the winner in either fight #2 or 3 (I no longer remember which)

And, of course, Larry Holmes beat him up. It was ugly to see. This is certainly one of the reasons that I no longer watch boxing.

[connoisseur series500]

  Mnytime said:

By the way, the whole thing about calling all 4 or 5 of his sons George really is strange.

Certainly would agree!

[Guest Mnytime]

  connoisseur series500 said:

  Mnytime said:

Ali had 14 more fights after Rumble and 10 after Thrilla.  In those 10 included at least 4 good to very good fighters, Norton, Shavers, Holmes, Berbick.

Shavers gave him a hard time and Norton always gave him a very tough fight; in fact, I do believe that Norton actually should have been declared the winner in either fight #2 or 3 (I no longer remember which)

And, of course, Larry Holmes beat him up. It was ugly to see. This is certainly one of the reasons that I no longer watch boxing.

Well as they say style makes the fight. Shavers and Norton styles gave Ali problems. Foreman had no problem with Frazier who always gave Ali problems but Ali was a different story for Foreman.

Norton especially gave Ali problems with Norton's peak-a-boo style of fighting.

Also don't forget the Ali that fought against all those guys was much different than the Ali before the whole Draft issue happened. The 3 years off took a major toll on Ali's legs and hand. Ali had hand problems the rest of his career after coming back and he no longer had the same speed in his legs or arms.

The thing that made him so great in the early days was his speed. The thing that made him great in his later days was his heart and ability to take punishment. Without the layoff who knows what condition he is in today. He didn't take much punishment early on because he was to quick. He had to change his whole way of fighting that allowed him to get hit a great many times in each fight.

Edited July 7, 2003 by Mnytime

[Cali]

Sonny Liston was A FEARSOME FIGHTER. He didn't get his reputation by beating up bums.

He had cleaned up the heavyweight division before he fought Ali. He didn't beat up a lot of over-the-hill-fighters, like Marciano did. He beat Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams (twice) in addition to Patterson (twice) in the first round, all of them in their prime. He was an awesome puncher with what was thought at the time, the best jab in history. He would have destroyed Marciano. Practically everyone he fought, with the exception of Williams, was afraid of him. Williams stood toe-to-toe with him and got knocked out for his trouble. Nobody could stand toe-to-toe with Liston!

Foreman beat everyone he fought until he met Ali, not just Frazier. The difference between Shavers and Foreman was Shavers couldn't take a punch. And as for Norton, look how Foreman blew him away.

To underrate Liston and Foreman is to minimize the skill, artistry, speed and intellect of Ali. These fighters were thought of as invincible until Ali showed us all how speed and intelligence will overcome power ("float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see").

Edited July 8, 2003 by Cali

[connoisseur series500]

  Cali said:

To underrate Liston and Foreman is to minimize the skill, artistry, speed and intellect of Ali. These fighters were thought of as invincible until Ali showed us all how speed and intelligence will overcome power ("float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see").

good point!

[Guest Mnytime]

  connoisseur series500 said:

  Cali said:

To underrate Liston and Foreman is to minimize the skill, artistry, speed and intellect of Ali. These fighters were thought of as invincible until Ali showed us all how speed and intelligence will overcome power ("float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see").

good point!

That's one way of seeing it. My way of seeing it is Ali was so incredible that he made good fighters look like Bums in comparision to him. Though at times he did make bums look like great fighters.

Edited July 8, 2003 by Mnytime

[Guest Mnytime]

  Cali said:

Sonny Liston was A FEARSOME FIGHTER. He didn't get his reputation by beating up bums.

He had cleaned up the heavyweight division before he fought Ali. He didn't beat up a lot of over-the-hill-fighters, like Marciano did. He beat Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams (twice) in addition to Patterson (twice) in the first round, all of them in their prime. He was an awesome puncher with what was thought at the time, the best jab in history. He would have destroyed Marciano. Practically everyone he fought, with the exception of Williams, was afraid of him. Williams stood toe-to-toe with him and got knocked out for his trouble. Nobody could stand toe-to-toe with Liston!

Foreman beat everyone he fought until he met Ali, not just Frazier. The difference between Shavers and Foreman was Shavers couldn't take a punch. And as for Norton, look how Foreman blew him away.

To underrate Liston and Foreman is to minimize the skill, artistry, speed and intellect of Ali. These fighters were thought of as invincible until Ali showed us all how speed and intelligence will overcome power ("float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see").

I really would suggest you re-read my posts.

[chris olivarez]

My first sports bet was Ali-Foreman.It was a case of Heineken and I went with Muhammad.I got fairly swacked.

[Alexander]

More important than Ali's considerable skill, power, and speed in the ring was his impact as American Icon. He presented a paradigm of Black Manliness at a time when such figures were sorely needed. Think about it: Ali was one of the most prominant, outspoken, bright, and successful Black Americans of the 1960s. It's hard to imagine a sports figure having that kind of influence today. Ali certainly stood alongside political figures like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, and entertainers like James Brown, Sydney Poitier and (yes) Bill Cosby as one of the biggest African-Americans of the decade. He was a symbol of Black Power, of the skill, strength and intellect that was inherent in every human being, black or white. Ali demanded respect, not because of his race, but because he represented a pinnicle of humanity.

Where, I ask you, are such figures today? Will there ever be a boxer (or any other athelete for that matter) whose influence is as widely felt as Ali's?

Edited July 10, 2003 by Alexander

[Soulstation1]

when will all of ali's fights come out on a dvd set?

that set would sell......