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God I hope this story is overblown right now!!!


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I heard an anchor on fox make a good point, what happens to Lake Pontchartrain when all that toxic water from the city is pumped into it??? :ph34r:

And I heard one women refused to leave her house when the rescuers said she couldn't bring her dog onboard! :(

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In the past week or so, there was a lengthy story on some news show or other (couldn't find a link for CBS Sunday Morning) about a coastal area somewhere in the southeastern portion of the US that has been rebuilt multiple times in recent years in the aftermath of devastating hurricanes. The area has had a lot of hurricane activity over the years and yet people still stay there and the federal government keeps picking up the tab to rebuilt these neighborhoods. The homes that were rebuilt were quite expensive homes in a somewhat exclusive area. The cost of rebuilding to date is in the billions. The story ended with something to the effect of should these areas be developed and your tax dollars at work. No outcry over that but so much griping about rebuilding N.O. and the irresponsibililty of those who choose to live there.

It isn't news that cities are built on waterways because of commerce. That's a no-brainer. Too bad that N.O. is in a bowl but that happens to be where it is. The idea that the city shouldn't be rebuilt because of one bunch of incompetents is interesting, not to mention ridiculous.

I live in the SF Bay Area. There are two major fault lines that run through here. A rupture on either fault line is predicted to cause catastrophic damage and loss of life. In addition to the major faults, there are countless smaller faults and new ones are cropping up all the time. Where do folks suggest all 6.5 million of us should go before the big one hits?

Japan IS a fault line. But it's a funny thing about those wacky Japanese folks. They have decided that it is worth the effort and the expense to design their development projects in such a way to mitigate the effects of earthquake. They have alarm systems for tsunamis. In other words, the Japanese aren't a bunch of judgemental twinks who have decided that anyone who stays in the country pays their money and takes their chances because the bureaucrats are a bunch of cheap bastards who have no interest in protecting the health and safety of the populace. No, that would be the well-trod territory of US bureacrats.

Let's see: Tornadoes all over the midwest and southeast. Those folks should move. Blizzards in the northeast. Those folks should move. Seattle is on a fault line and next door to an active volcano. Those folks should move. Same with Portland and Mt. Hood (and Mt. St. Helens).

Mt. Etna. Dummies who live near that thing. And Venice is sinking. Idiots there too. Floods in India and Bangladesh. Earthquates in Mexico, Central America, well, actually, all over Latin America. Fools, all of them for living there. The Middle East is earthquake central.

I guess we could all squeeze our fat behinds up in the Irish countryside. Nothing much happening up there, natural disaster-wise.

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I think the blame game is a no win situation. One used to think that by getting to the bottom of our mistakes, lessons would be learned. I think we've figured out after 9/11 that we don't and the endless bickering doesn't help matters.

All this while resue efforts are still continuing. Can't we at least try and get the rescue efforts in full effect before we start pointing fingers?

This isn't a republican/democrat problem it's an American problem we need to solve before this happens again. Sadly, I don't have much faith that will happen. The politics in this country and hurting us all. Literally.

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It isn't news that cities are built on waterways because of commerce.  That's a no-brainer.  Too bad that N.O. is in a bowl but that happens to be where it is.  The idea that the city shouldn't be rebuilt because of one bunch of incompetents is interesting, not to mention ridiculous.

I think the correct question is not "should New Orleans be rebuilt?" but rather "should New Orleans be rebuilt as a major residential center in the exact same spot rather than in a safer area a few miles down the road?" I agree that most areas in the country face at least some risk of natural disaster, but even within those areas some sub-areas are more dangerous than others. For example, New Orleans was a much more vulnerable area than nearby areas of MS and AL. (A related question could be asked about parts of the southwest -- is developing areas that increasingly encroach on dry forests that burn every summer really a good idea?)

A secondary question is whether, if people do choose to locate in the area where the old New Orleans was, whether the government should impose some sort of cost relative to if they chose to locate in safer regions nearby -- i.e., a smaller amount of financial assistance.

Guy

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Ghost and Berrigan, thanks for posting those articles.  They both ring true.

Everyone in New Orleans, including the poor, understood that hurricanes and the flooding they cause are an annual threat to their homes, their incomes and their way of life including their life itself.  As much as I think that the govt at all levels has done an unsatisfactory job, I believe that the ultimate blame should be borne by the people called the victims.  They gambled with their eyes wide open, and they lost.

Having left New Orleans for good 34 years ago, I have affection and concern for the people who stayed, but not a lot of sympathy for those who chose good times or familiar surroundings over their own safety and the safety of their loved ones.

What can one say to this except, "Fuck you, too, asshole."

I certainly can't think of anything else.

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It isn't news that cities are built on waterways because of commerce.   That's a no-brainer.  Too bad that N.O. is in a bowl but that happens to be where it is.   The idea that the city shouldn't be rebuilt because of one bunch of incompetents is interesting, not to mention ridiculous.

I think the correct question is not "should New Orleans be rebuilt?" but rather "should New Orleans be rebuilt as a major residential center in the exact same spot rather than in a safer area a few miles down the road?" I agree that most areas in the country face at least some risk of natural disaster, but even within those areas some sub-areas are more dangerous than others. For example, New Orleans was a much more vulnerable area than nearby areas of MS and AL. (A related question could be asked about parts of the southwest -- is developing areas that increasingly encroach on dry forests that burn every summer really a good idea?)

A secondary question is whether, if people do choose to locate in the area where the old New Orleans was, whether the government should impose some sort of cost relative to if they chose to locate in safer regions nearby -- i.e., a smaller amount of financial assistance.

Guy

I understand the reasoning, but where do people live? What area is safe? I've lived in areas with tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, etc., and to date I have yet to see an area that is totally safe. Maybe we should just get off the planet...

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My question for those who advocate rebuilding the city "someplace else" - what are you going to do with the land that gets left behind? Who will end up owning it? To what purpose will it be put? Can it be guaranteed that this wouldn't result in some sort of "land grab" by business interests, somewhat comprable to the seizure of some Japanese-American's California property in the wake of Pearl Harbor?

I'm in no way suggesting that there is already a coordinated effort afoot for such a thing, but surely nobody is naive enough to think that somebody somewhere isn't already seeing this tragedy as a "business opportunity" (or a political one, but that's another matter). If you get the people off/out of the land and rebuild the levee system to where it should have been in the first place, you can't tell me that you're not going to have a very valuable commodity on your hands. "Merely" restoring it to it's former usage is going to be seen by some as not "maximizing the potential" of that commodity.

So, how can we seperate a legitimate discussion about rebuilding elsewhere from planted propaganda geared towards achieving a land grab? Or can we?

Certainly not suggesting that either Guy or GA has such motives, just that in the days ahead, you can bet that we'll be hearing more calls for this plan of action, and that nowhere near all of it is going to be altruistically motivated.

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Look. New Orleans is going to be rebuilt. Many parts of the City weren't even water damaged. Not to mention the other areas on the other side of the levee. I'm not going to say it's going to happen overnight.

They'll just build the levee's higher or build a high retaining wall while they're rebuilding there. They might put a 1 year no-habitation order while they rebuild parts of the infrastructure and levee. But it will get done, I have no doubt.

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an interesting chunk of a CNN interview with the Mayor of N.O. Nagin

NAGIN: Look, I’ll take whatever responsibility that I have to take. But let me ask you this question: When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a category 5 storm bearing down on you, and you have the best you’ve ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people out of the city, and you have never issued a mandatory evacuation in the city’s history, a city that is a couple of hundred years old, I did that. I elevated the level of distress to the citizens.

And I don’t know what else I could do, other than to tell them that it’s a mandatory evacuation. And if they stayed, make sure you have a frigging ax in your home, where you can bust out the roof just in case the water starts flowing.

And as a last resort, once this thing is above a category 3, there are no buildings in this city to withstand a category 3, a category 4 or a category 5 storm, other than the Superdome. That’s where we sent people as a shelter of last resort. When that filled up, we sent them to the Convention Center. Now, you tell me what else we could have done.

S. O’BRIEN: What has Secretary Chertoff promised you? What has Donald Rumsfeld given you and promised you?

NAGIN: Look, I’ve gotten promises to — I can’t stand anymore promises. I don’t want to hear anymore promises. I want to see stuff done. And that’s why I’m so happy that the president came down here, because I think they were feeding him a line of bull also. And they were telling him things weren’t as bad as it was.

He came down and saw it, and he put a general on the field. His name is General Honore. And when he hit the field, we started to see action.

And what the state was doing, I don’t frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn’t adequate.

And then, the president and the governor sat down. We were in Air Force One. I said, ‘Mr. President, Madam Governor, you two have to get in sync. If you don’t get in sync, more people are going to die.’

S. O’BRIEN: What date was this? When did you say that? When did you say...

NAGIN: Whenever air Force One was here.

S. O’BRIEN: OK.

NAGIN: And this was after I called him on the telephone two days earlier. And I said, ‘Mr. President, Madam Governor, you two need to get together on the same page, because of the lack of coordination, people are dying in my city.’

S. O’BRIEN: That’s two days ago.

NAGIN: They both shook — I don’t know the exact date. They both shook their head and said yes. I said, ‘Great.’ I said, ‘Everybody in this room is getting ready to leave.’ There was senators and his cabinet people, you name it, they were there. Generals. I said, ‘Everybody right now, we’re leaving. These two people need to sit in a room together and make a doggone decision right now.’

S. O’BRIEN: And was that done?

NAGIN: The president looked at me. I think he was a little surprised. He said, “No, you guys stay here. We’re going to another section of the plane, and we’re going to make a decision.”

He called me in that office after that. And he said, “Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor.” I said — and I don’t remember exactly what. There were two options. I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision.

S. O’BRIEN: You’re telling me the president told you the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision?

NAGIN: Yes.

S. O’BRIEN: Regarding what? Bringing troops in?

NAGIN: Whatever they had discussed. As far as what the — I was abdicating a clear chain of command, so that we could get resources flowing in the right places.

S. O’BRIEN: And the governor said no.

NAGIN: She said that she needed 24 hours to make a decision. It would have been great if we could of left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out. It didn’t happen, and more people died.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0509/05/ltm.01.html

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I live near enough to Canada to get CBC, and I watched some of their coverage over the weekend ... it was fascinating/depressing to see their take on things ... calling the Superbowl/Convention Center refugee camps, showing bodies floating in the water and some really scary footage of try to "restore order," wondering how something like this could be happening to the world's richest country ... the best way I could relate it to the folks here is to have you imagine what it would be like if Christiern were running the news ...

Also, did anyone see this disgusting story:

A mother's most difficult decision

GREENSBURG, La. — A desperate crowd pressed against her as Beverly Burke huddled with her four children on a damp swatch of grass early Wednesday, all of them clamoring for a spot on a coveted military convoy headed out of New Orleans.

A vehicle pulled up.

“Infants only on this truck,” Burke recalled the sergeant as saying. He pointed to Burke’s oldest child, 10-year-old Sheba, and said, “She can’t go.”

Burke was confused. She said the soldier explained that this truck was designated only for babies, the elderly and one companion each. Other trucks were coming. The oldest girl could go with one of them.

Burke pleaded, to no avail, and said she was told she’d lose her spot unless she moved now.

That left her with a choice:

Leave the oldest child behind to catch another ride and rejoin them later at a dropoff point. Or take a chance that the family might lose their opportunity to escape alive if they waited to leave together.

Considering the chaos around her, Burke said, she believed the second option was no safe choice.

“Go ahead, Momma,” her oldest said softly. “Take care of the babies. I’ll follow you.”

Then Burke did what she now says no mother should have to do.

She loaded up her other children and told Sheba to stick close to her teenage cousins who stayed behind with her. From aboard the truck, Burke watched Sheba grow smaller in the distance.

And just like that, a shy girl in a pink Baby Phat jogging suit with crooked front teeth and long braids vanished into an evacuee throng amid what is likely the biggest natural disaster in U.S. history.

For the next two days, Burke and her family endured yet another layer of trauma in Hurricane Katrina’s aftermath as they searched frantically for a girl who never showed up on that next truck.

It all ended Friday afternoon with an improbable scene of joy and disbelief as mother and child were reunited. But it was a moment that Burke feared would end another way.

Tragically.

Untold families were blown apart this week — not only by Hurricane Katrina, but in many cases by the forces of a chaotic government attempt to cope with the disaster.

As military convoys tried to evacuate the most vulnerable from New Orleans, some evacuees reported seeing pregnant women separated from husbands, children boarding convoys while pained parents watched.

Told of Burke’s account, a National Guard official in Washington said Friday she had no information on Sheba’s rescue or on Guard rescue policies that might result in family separations.

“There is no standard policy that the Guard goes by when evacuating, other than they take priority first,” said Guard spokeswoman Dalena Kanouse.

Red Cross officials said Friday they had no statistics on how many evacuee families were separated during rescue efforts.

Burke, a single mother, had kept her children safe through Monday’s hurricane, Tuesday’s flood and near starvation as the week unfolded. Her 1- and 2-year-old boys — Semajon and Sabian — were ill. Four-year-old Ashida was hungry and terrified. Their New Orleans home was flooded, their food gone.

Burke said Friday she and her four children had survived the initial flood by floating on a kiddie pool buoyed by tires to a partially submerged bridge.

Hours later, passing boaters ferried them to a dry patch of land where hundreds of other desperate families awaited National Guard trucks. A sergeant went through the crowd, Burke said, pulling out the elderly and infants. Babies were allowed one parent; the elderly were allowed one caretaker, she said.

When she and her youngest children were finally forced to board, Burke said, she kissed Sheba on the cheek. She said she asked the girl: “Sheba, baby, who are your people? Tell me their names.”

There was Uncle Travis in Houston, Sheba said. Auntie Shamica in Dallas and cousin Calvin in Baton Rouge.

“OK, good girl,” Burke said. “You remember those names.”

The family’s search for Sheba began almost as soon as she was left behind.

Burke, 40, said she and her three youngest children were first dropped off by the convoy on a dry street in New Orleans. There, in a crowd of thousands, Burke strained to see Sheba.

Several trucks arrived in the next few hours, but Sheba was not on them. Burke was then told to board another bus that would take them from the city. Burke asked if she could wait for Sheba, but said she was ordered to leave.

“When you have men pointing guns at you, telling you what to do, you have no control,” she said. “Nobody cared that my daughter wasn’t there.”

Burke and her children were driven to Thibodaux, west of New Orleans. When they arrived, Burke told a Red Cross worker that Sheba had been left behind. The worker told her she would be put on an alert list of lost family members. That was the best he could do, he told Burke.

Burke stayed up all night Wednesday watching buses arrive at the shelter. No Sheba. One bus, she said, seemed to have a lot of children without parents. She scanned every sad face, but no Sheba.

“Then I realized she could be anywhere,” Burke said. Her worst thought: that Sheba was still trapped in New Orleans.

By Thursday, Burke and her brood had been taken to a relative’s home in Greensburg, north of Baton Rouge. She called on family members from Texas to Detroit help find Sheba. Cousins in Baton Rouge, Houston and Dallas searched through shelters throughout Louisiana and Texas. No luck.

Then, at 3 p.m. Friday, Burke’s phone rang.

“I have her!” It was Calvin Page, Burke’s cousin from Baton Rouge. Sheba had survived, but barely.

Rescuers had moved the girl, her cousins and two neighbors into the New Orleans’ Convention Center, a scene of dead bodies, starving people and roaming thugs.

As relatives recounted it, people trapped in the convention center stole a city truck early Friday — taking Sheba with them — and broke out of the swamped city.

They made it to a shelter in Baton Rouge and turned on a cell phone that had been left with one of Sheba’s cousins. They charged the dead battery and called Page.

Three hours later, a quiet little girl in clean blue pants and blue shirt emerged from his car and was lifted off her feet into her mother’s arms.

“Look at you!” Burke cried. “Look at my baby!”

After a flood of tears from cousins and aunts all around, Sheba sat with her mother in a big rocking chair.

“You’re going to have to wash my hair; it’s real dirty,” the girl said quietly.

Her mother couldn’t wait.

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Yes, thanks for posting that. :tup It would be interesting to know--and I suspect we eventually will--what 2 options were offered to Governor Blanco; what strings, if any, were attached; and why she needed 24 hours to decide.

This, perhaps? http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...a_washington_32

Blanco has refused to sign over control of the National Guard to the federal government and has turned to a Clinton administration official, former    Federal Emergency Management Agency chief James Lee Witt, to help run relief efforts.

Is it "normal" for a governor to "sign over control" of their states' NG to the Feds in times of emergency? Or to be asked to?

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Look.  New Orleans is going to be rebuilt.  Many parts of the City weren't even water damaged.  Not to mention the other areas on the other side of the levee.  I'm not going to say it's going to happen overnight.

They'll just build the levee's higher or build a high retaining wall while they're rebuilding there.  They might put a 1 year no-habitation order while they rebuild parts of the infrastructure and levee.  But it will get done, I have no doubt.

....agreed!

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I don't know what it means, but I've been watching a lot of the disaster coverage over the last week and I don't recall even seeing the Governor until Saturday. I'm sure she was involved in some ways - she must have been, right? - but I didn't see her...

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So, how can we seperate a legitimate discussion about rebuilding elsewhere from planted propaganda geared towards achieving a land grab? Or can we?

Certainly not suggesting that either Guy or GA has such motives, just that in the days ahead, you can bet that we'll be hearing more calls for this plan of action, and that nowhere near all of it is going to be altruistically motivated.

Jim, you raise a good point. First let me say that to me the question is not whether it will be rebuilt, only to what extent and who will pay for it. If somebody wants to take his insurance money and build a new home on his property, it's perfectly OK with me.

I wonder what the Louisiana law is regarding condemnation. Will we see the govt condemn the flooded homes for public health reasons, and allow the property owners to retain ownership? I have no problem with that.

I am reminded of the Louisiana politics regarding the casino when you mention a land grab. In that case there was a divison between the state govt and the city govt. I can imagine that not only will those with state and city govt connections vie over a land grab, but also those with federal connections.

I can foresee the recent case of Kelo v. New London coming into play here. That was the case whish said that a local govt can use eminent domain when its purpose is to garner more taxes.

I can foresee the govt taking people's property against their wishes, and redeveloping New Orleans to the profit of those with political connections.

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I don't know what it means, but I've been watching a lot of the disaster coverage over the last week and I don't recall even seeing the Governor until Saturday.  I'm sure she was involved in some ways - she must have been, right? - but I didn't see her...

I saw her a lot: including getting ripped by Anderson Cooper for thanking all the other politicians for theri help.

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I don't know what it means, but I've been watching a lot of the disaster coverage over the last week and I don't recall even seeing the Governor until Saturday.  I'm sure she was involved in some ways - she must have been, right? - but I didn't see her...

I saw her a lot: including getting ripped by Anderson Cooper for thanking all the other politicians for theri help.

Maybe you are confusing her with Senator Landrieux?

Guy

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Can you imagine how profoundly filthy and nasty that water is? What are they going to do with it? Will they treat it somehow? I hope it doesn't just go back into the gulf.

:(

Priority of pumping out city means no chance of cleaning water first

• New Orleans’ fouled water going into river, lake

Updated: 1:36 p.m. ET Sept. 6, 2005

BATON ROUGE, La. - The brew of chemicals and human waste in the New Orleans floodwaters will have to be pumped into the Mississippi River or Lake Pontchartrain, raising the specter of an environmental disaster on the heels of Hurricane Katrina, experts say.

The dire need to rid the drowned city of water could trigger fish kills and poison the delicate wetlands near New Orleans and the Gulf of Mexico at the mouth of the Mississippi.

State and federal agencies have just begun water-quality testing but environmental experts say the vile, stagnant chemical soup that sits in the streets of the city known as The Big Easy will contain traces of everything imaginable.

“Go home and identify all the chemicals in your house. It’s a very long list,” said Ivor van Heerden, head of a Louisiana State University center that studies the public health impacts of hurricanes.

“And that’s just in a home. Imagine what’s in an industrial plant,” he said. “Or a sewage plant.”

Gasoline, diesel, anti-freeze, bleach, human waste, acids, alcohols and a host of other substances must be washed out of homes, factories, refineries, hospitals and other buildings.

“There is a disease risk," Mike McDaniel, head of the Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality, told reporters Tuesday. He added, though, that it was premature to call the floodwaters toxic, and that better data should be available Thursday.

“Initial indications are that they are showing large numbers of contaminants,” McDaniel said. “We are taking samples ... We expect you're going to see quantities of fuel and gasoline. There are sheens wherever you look.”

Rupture dangers

In Metairie, east of New Orleans, the floodwater is tea-colored, murky and smells of burnt sulfur. A thin film of oil is visible in the water.

Those who have waded into it say they could see only about 1 to 2 inches into the depths and that there was significant debris on and below the surface.

Experts said the longer water sat in the streets,  the greater the chance gasoline and chemical tanks — as well as common containers holding anything from bleach to shampoo — would rupture.

Officials have said it may take up to 80 days to clear the water from New Orleans and surrounding parishes.

Van Heerden and Rodney Mallett, communications director for the Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality, say there do not appear to be any choices other than to pump the water into Lake Pontchartrain or the Mississippi River, which flows into the Gulf of Mexico, a key maritime spawning ground.

“I don’t see how we could treat all that water,” Mallett said.

The result could be an second wave of disaster for southern Louisiana, said Harold Zeliger, a Florida-based chemical toxicologist and water quality consultant.

“In effect, it’s going to kill everything in those waters,” he said.

How much water New Orleans holds is open to question.

Van Heerden estimates it is billions of gallons. LSU researchers will use satellite imagery and computer modeling to get a better fix on the quantity.

Rush to get it out

Bio-remediation — cleaning up the water — would require the time and expense of constructing huge storage facilities, considered an impossibility, especially with the public clamor to get the water out quickly.

Mallett said the Department of Environmental Quality was in the unfortunate position of being responsible for protecting the environment in a situation where that did not seem possible.

“We’re not happy about it. But for the sake of civilization and lives, probably the best thing to do is pump the water out,” he said.

The water will leave behind more trouble — a city filled with mold, some of it toxic, the experts said. After other floods, researchers found many buildings had to be stripped back to concrete, or razed.

“If you have a building half full of water, everything above the water is growing mold. When it dries out, the rest grows mold,” Zeliger said. “Most of the buildings will have to be destroyed.”

Copyright 2005 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.

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Chrome: "I live near enough to Canada to get CBC, and I watched some of their coverage over the weekend ... it was fascinating/depressing to see their take on things ... calling the Superbowl/Convention Center refugee camps, showing bodies floating in the water and some really scary footage of try to "restore order," wondering how something like this could be happening to the world's richest country ... the best way I could relate it to the folks here is to have you imagine what it would be like if Christiern were running the news ..."

Are you saying that the CBC's reporting was painfully honest?

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Can you imagine how profoundly filthy and nasty that water is? What are they going to do with it? Will they treat it somehow? I hope it doesn't just go back into the gulf.

:(

Priority of pumping out city means no chance of cleaning water first

• New Orleans’ fouled water going into river, lake

Updated: 1:36 p.m. ET Sept. 6, 2005

BATON ROUGE, La. - The brew of chemicals and human waste in the New Orleans floodwaters will have to be pumped into the Mississippi River or Lake Pontchartrain, raising the specter of an environmental disaster on the heels of Hurricane Katrina, experts say.

Thanks for posting that. How absolutely awful! :angry:

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