WORLD CUP 2006 / GERMANY

[Jim R]

This Holland v Portugal game is getting tasty.

FWIW, I have rarely seen a team so content to try to cheat their way to success as these Dutch. Sneeze near a lot of them and they'd fall over.

The *GREAT* Ruud Gullit is in the ITV studio, and is rightly ashamed of them.

LOL! Ruud must have been smoking his hair. As if the Portugese are not really really out to drop and -- much much worse -- provoke cards for their opponent. It's all over now, but that shite that Figo pulled with the headbanging (WTF!) and the theatricals to get Boullabaisse the red was much below even Portugese standards.

The problem with this match -- and the Dutch -- is that the ref doesn't look for the little disruptive shite that goes on and that kills the atmosphere; then the Dutch start banging back (there is some Englishness in them after all) and get the cards. Especially cool how that Portugese dude almost kicked off Robben's arm and saw, which card? None actually, as it was Robben who got the yellow on that action. Cool runnings, ref!

Of course if the ref had given Bouillabasse red after that jump on Ronaldo (the little pisser) then maybe he might have held this under control. As it went now, the ref seemed to have felt he owned the Portugese a favour, and another favour, and a favour, and before the knew it, the house was on fire or rather ablaze.

This wasn't a game, this was war and very ugly. Someone should blame the ref, so let me be the first.

At least he likely set a record for most yellows and reds.

That's the worst match I've seen in years.

I would put more blame on the Portuguese for the spiraling misconduct, and I wasn't all that surprised to see it, except for Figo's headbutt. I couldn't believe my eyes when Simao kicked van der Sar in the face (a ball well beyond his reach), and wasn't even cautioned. Both teams deserved to lose. The ESPN announcer said in the early stages (after the foul on Ronaldo) that this ref was going to lose control of this match. Sure enough.

I thought the Dutch back line played a horrendous game. Even though they weren't punished for it, I counted about a half dozen terrible giveaways in their own half which set Portugal on the attack. Maniche took his goal well, so I suppose the result is fair in the end, but I hope England send them home.

[Jim R]

WTF has Van Basten done?

Whatever happened between him and Van Nistelrooy, Ruud should have played!

Can anyone shed any light on this? I too was mystified, and we can't rely on ABC/ESPN to get to the bottom of anything. I wasn't impressed with Ruud's replacement.

[J.A.W.]

(...) I hope England send them home.

I hope so too, even though England are not quite my favourite team...

[J.A.W.]

WTF has Van Basten done?

Whatever happened between him and Van Nistelrooy, Ruud should have played!

Can anyone shed any light on this? I too was mystified, and we can't rely on ABC/ESPN to get to the bottom of anything. I wasn't impressed with Ruud's replacement.

Van Basten said he didn't like Van Nistelrooij's performances in the group games. According to Van Basten his positioning left a lot to be desired, and his finishing was quite poor; he said that there was "not enough football" in Van Nistelrooij's game.

Edited June 25, 2006 by J.A.W.

[EKE BBB]

WTF has Van Basten done?

Whatever happened between him and Van Nistelrooy, Ruud should have played!

Can anyone shed any light on this? I too was mystified, and we can't rely on ABC/ESPN to get to the bottom of anything. I wasn't impressed with Ruud's replacement.

Van Basten said he didn't like Van Nistelrooij's performances in the group games. According to Van Basten his positioning left a lot to be desired, and his finishing was quite poor; he said that there was "not enough football" in Van Nistelrooij's game.

Now look at that Kuyt he put instead!

(as we say here, "he wouldn´t score a goal to a rainbow")

[couw]

WTF has Van Basten done?

Whatever happened between him and Van Nistelrooy, Ruud should have played!

Can anyone shed any light on this? I too was mystified, and we can't rely on ABC/ESPN to get to the bottom of anything. I wasn't impressed with Ruud's replacement.

Van Basten said he didn't like Van Nistelrooij's performances in the group games. According to Van Basten his positioning left a lot to be desired, and his finishing was quite poor; he said that there was "not enough football" in Van Nisterooij's game.

which is actually true as Van Nistelrooij played like a regular overweight Ronaldo. Not that Kuijt did any better, but at least he walked some metres to put himself in a position to receive the ball (he might have idealy dropped and fought like Rooney did). Van Nistelrooij is not the right guy if you are playing with a 3 up front system where the centre should take the outside and v.v. every now and then (total football). It seems to me Van Basten is sort of hoovering in between too many tactical concepts to get anything across.

Then again, they made it through the group of death and showed how to keep Argentina tame by keeping them busy in the midfield with early attacks and fast passes to and fro. There's a nice core for Van Basten to work on.

[J.A.W.]

WTF has Van Basten done?

Whatever happened between him and Van Nistelrooy, Ruud should have played!

Can anyone shed any light on this? I too was mystified, and we can't rely on ABC/ESPN to get to the bottom of anything. I wasn't impressed with Ruud's replacement.

Van Basten said he didn't like Van Nistelrooij's performances in the group games. According to Van Basten his positioning left a lot to be desired, and his finishing was quite poor; he said that there was "not enough football" in Van Nisterooij's game.

which is actually true as Van Nistelrooij played like a regular overweight Ronaldo. Not that Kuijt did any better, but at least he walked some metres to put himself in a position to receive the ball (he might have idealy dropped and fought like Rooney did). Van Nistelrooij is not the right guy if you are playing with a 3 up front system where the centre should take the outside and v.v. every now and then (total football). It seems to me Van Basten is sort of hoovering in between too many tactical concepts to get anything across.

Absolutely true.

Then again, they made it through the group of death and showed how to keep Argentina tame by keeping them busy in the midfield with early attacks and fast passes to and fro. There's a nice core for Van Basten to work on.

That's right, but I really hope he'll return to a more attractive style. However, if you don't have players who are good enough to play on that level, well...

[Jim R]

WTF has Van Basten done?

Whatever happened between him and Van Nistelrooy, Ruud should have played!

Can anyone shed any light on this? I too was mystified, and we can't rely on ABC/ESPN to get to the bottom of anything. I wasn't impressed with Ruud's replacement.

Van Basten said he didn't like Van Nistelrooij's performances in the group games. According to Van Basten his positioning left a lot to be desired, and his finishing was quite poor; he said that there was "not enough football" in Van Nistelrooij's game.

Thanks, Hans. I kind of recall that he was less than sterling, but under today's circumstances I expected to see him come on in the later stages. Oh well, too bad it didn't work out better for your side.

I know nothing of Van Basten's coaching quality, but I do like his demeanor during matches. Very calm, cool, and collected (I don't like the raving mad coaches or the ones who appear to be preparing their teams while the match is already in progress).

[couw]

BTW and watching some utterly awesome passing on, and ball receives of Van Persie: woa! Who placed those passes? Television was too fast and too little informed here, but it got me thinking that if Beckham would put in such a ball everyone would go on about what a brilliant player he is. Well excuse me, but some dude in the Dutch team was placing back-spin balls on Van Persie that were not only terrifically placed, but dropped dead in front of him; and not only in this match.

[Brad]

I had to go out so I taped the game and just watched and I have to say in 40 years of World Cup watching I have never ever ever seen anything like that. That wasn't football. That was men (if you can call them that) losing their cool and not playing sport but brawling on a grand stage. As has been said here and on the game, the ref lost it early on and we got what he sowed. England must be lapping this up with Deco gone. I suppose you have to be lucky sometimes and they are getting very lucky.

Someone commented about the beautiful game being gone and that is true because the world's players now play in European football: no advantage asked, none given. That so called elbow to Figo. He was just trying to even the score. Some of these guys in today's match should get the academy award. Another one was when Figo allegedly head butted the Dutch player. Yes, he did butt him but then to fall down the way he did, it would have done De Niro proud.

I thought the refereeing in 2002 was bad but overall this Cup is worse. What about that bogus goal Frei was allowed to keep against the Koreans? Shameful, in my view. I actually think FIFA likes this; it keeps the controversy going. You would think that you wouldn't need that kind of attention at a World Cup.

As far as Van Basten looking calm, he had the look of a deer lost in headlights. Looked totally out of his element. By the way, with a player the quality of Ruud, sometimes 90 percent of him is better than 100 percent of most players. An atrocious decision.

Let us hope for better matches tomorrow.

Edited June 26, 2006 by Brad

[Jim R]

I thought the refereeing in 2002 was bad but overall this Cup is worse.

Much worse, imo. At least in this match, most of the cards were deserved. It seems as though there have been fewer kneejerk yellows and reds in the second round thus far... hopefully that continues, and we won't see a match like this again.

As far as Van Basten looking calm, he had the look of a deer lost in headlights.

Well, his decision-making aside, I admired his relative calmness- especially during a travesty of a match like that. Too bad the players couldn't have managed to act the same way (a lot to ask, considering the ref's performance).

[kenny weir]

I think England is in trouble as are Sweden, Mexico, Ghana, Australia and Ecuador.

Well Scott. I reckon that's a pretty darn silly way of looking at it. This is the kind of trouble I'm sure some folkses - the US, Czechs and South Koreans, for example - wish they were in.

Easy there, mate! I think it was just Scott's way of saying which teams he thought would bow out in this round. He may be right or wrong about each one, but I wouldn't call it silly to phrase it that way.

Oh, and I give Australia a decent chance of upsetting Italy, fwiw. I hope they do, in fact... just don't expect it.

Jim - my response to Scott was delivered with a light heart. Just looking on the bright side was all. And I understood what he was saying, but it simply didn't register with me. Trouble? Yeah I know, but truly the Aussies are winners no matter tonight's result.

Melbourne and Australia is agog and trembling with anticipation. There are strong doubts about Kewell's fitness, but with Hiddink - who knows?

Yes - a decent chance, but one I don't expect to be fulfilled. Hope? Yes.

And certainly I will be dismayed if the Australians don't make more of match of it than the disappointing Ecuador. And England.

On a more reflective level, it's fascinating to observe the social and cultural ramifications of all this in Australia.

On a personal level, and like many others, I have a feeling of completeness, of coming home that started with the successful introduction of our A-League. The process continued with entry to Asia, qualification for the World Cup, Hiddink's appointment. With Asian Cup matches following closely after the World Cup, "normal transmission will not be resumed", as FFA head John O'Neill put it.

It's unbelievable watching Aussie Rules being reduced to a rump sport in the guts of winter.

And I feel a sense of wonder and excruciating terror that I've had only mere tastes of before via the Melbourne Storm (rugby league) or even the All Blacks (NZ rugby union).

Here in Melbourne, there is a strong feeling that our huge Italian community is strongly behind the Socceroos. Especially the younger generations, but also many of the elders. That would hardly have been the case a decade ago. And of course for almost all of them, it's a win-win situation anyway.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Here in Melbourne, there is a strong feeling that our huge Italian community is strongly behind the Socceroos. Especially the younger generations, but also many of the elders. That would hardly have been the case a decade ago. And of course for almost all of them, it's a win-win situation anyway.

That's cool to hear! How was the atmosphere for the Croatia game - isn't there a large Croatian population in Melbourne and Sydney?

FWIW, I thought Kuyt got in some good positions. Don't know how he stacks up against Van Nistelrooy...

The violence is one thing. Both sides were equally reprehensible in this respect. It's the Dutch diving that I cannot stand.

I would like Portugal to beat England. Portugal have more beautiful football in them. It was stifled last night (obviously!), but this English side is so dull as to be untrue (Liverpool under Houllier, anyone?).

[Alexander Hawkins]

Of course if the ref had given Bouillabasse red after that jump on Ronaldo (the little pisser) then maybe he might have held this under control. As it went now, the ref seemed to have felt he owned the Portugese a favour, and another favour, and a favour, and before the knew it, the house was on fire or rather ablaze.

I think it's a stretch to say the ref owed the Portugese any favours...remember, they went down to 10, then 9, first, and received more yellows than the Dutch.

Van Persie has a serious attitude problem. Thank goodness Bergkamp wasn't on the pitch with his pernicious 'sweetness and light' act.

p.s. I agree, Figo was completely out of order. My ranting against the Dutch is in no way to defend much of the Portugese conduct!

[J.A.W.]

It's the Dutch diving that I cannot stand

I'm not defending the Dutch here - I hate diving as much as you do - but they're not the only ones who are guilty. There's a lot of diving in this tournament, and I think it's not fair to single out the Dutch.

Edited June 26, 2006 by J.A.W.

[couw]

Of course if the ref had given Bouillabasse red after that jump on Ronaldo (the little pisser) then maybe he might have held this under control. As it went now, the ref seemed to have felt he owned the Portugese a favour, and another favour, and a favour, and before the knew it, the house was on fire or rather ablaze.

I think it's a stretch to say the ref owed the Portugese any favours...remember, they went down to 10, then 9, first, and received more yellows than the Dutch.

yes, that was AFTER the house caught fire. I think if the ref had handled the situation better and acted upon all the little shite the Portugese were pulling to "get back" for the foul on Ronaldo, then he might have kept things under control. The first two cards went to the Dutch within the first ten minutes. It took ten more minutes for the Portugese to receive their first yellow. Those 10 minutes were crucial, setting the atmosphere as the ref didn't have his eyes in the right place, gave too many silly free kicks to the Portugese and close to none to the Dutch. He *was* making up for his decision on the foul on Ronaldo, who kept limping to and fro, reminding everyone what bad guys these Dutch were. Once people knew this ref could be fooled, they continued their crap.

As for the Dutch diving, Robben should have acted some better when they kicked him in the shoulder. Just like Figo went for an academy award with a Dutch elbow in supporting role. Oscar for special effects. There certainly are some bad actors in the Dutch team, but they cannot hold a candle to the Italians (who must have invented it; do they have schools where you can learn this stuff?) or the Portugese for that matter. So instead of "Dutch diving", you'd better refer to "feghing diving" in general.

[couw]

It's the Dutch diving that I cannot stand

I'm not defending the Dutch here - I hate diving as much as you do - but they're not the only ones who are guilty. There's a lot of diving in this tournament, and I think it's not fair to single out the Dutch.

I think Ruud Gullit clouded Red's vision a bit here. The thing is, the Dutch hate diving. Even more when it's their own team doing it. So Gullit got upset and all ITV viewers with him. In the game I saw, the Portugese were much more eager to act than the Dutch. Which is not to say that the Dutch diving upset me more.

[Dmitry]

Holland-Portugal was the most bizarre game I've ever seen in the World Cup.

Whole thing should have been stopped and replayed.

Players were as much at fault as the ref.

PS - Figo is one slimy mo-fo.

PPS - Dutch had no chance.

PPPS - Where the f... was Van Nistelroy???

[J.A.W.]

It's the Dutch diving that I cannot stand

I'm not defending the Dutch here - I hate diving as much as you do - but they're not the only ones who are guilty. There's a lot of diving in this tournament, and I think it's not fair to single out the Dutch.

I think Ruud Gullit clouded Red's vision a bit here. The thing is, the Dutch hate diving. Even more when it's their own team doing it. So Gullit got upset and all ITV viewers with him. In the game I saw, the Portugese were much more eager to act than the Dutch. Which is not to say that the Dutch diving upset me more.

Well, I never cared much for Ruud Gullit's "analyses" anyway On Dutch TV his rambling goes on and on and on and on...

[Alexander Hawkins]

Of course if the ref had given Bouillabasse red after that jump on Ronaldo (the little pisser) then maybe he might have held this under control. As it went now, the ref seemed to have felt he owned the Portugese a favour, and another favour, and a favour, and before the knew it, the house was on fire or rather ablaze.

I think it's a stretch to say the ref owed the Portugese any favours...remember, they went down to 10, then 9, first, and received more yellows than the Dutch.

yes, that was AFTER the house caught fire. I think if the ref had handled the situation better and acted upon all the little shite the Portugese were pulling to "get back" for the foul on Ronaldo, then he might have kept things under control. The first two cards went to the Dutch within the first ten minutes. It took ten more minutes for the Portugese to receive their first yellow. Those 10 minutes were crucial, setting the atmosphere as the ref didn't have his eyes in the right place, gave too many silly free kicks to the Portugese and close to none to the Dutch. He *was* making up for his decision on the foul on Ronaldo, who kept limping to and fro, reminding everyone what bad guys these Dutch were. Once people knew this ref could be fooled, they continued their crap.

As for the Dutch diving, Robben should have acted some better when they kicked him in the shoulder. Just like Figo went for an academy award with a Dutch elbow in supporting role. Oscar for special effects. There certainly are some bad actors in the Dutch team, but they cannot hold a candle to the Italians (who must have invented it; do they have schools where you can learn this stuff?) or the Portugese for that matter. So instead of "Dutch diving", you'd better refer to "feghing diving" in general.

I accept that all teams do it to a greater or lesser extent. I just feel that the current Dutch team have a particularly pronounced tendency to fall over. That's certainly how I saw last night's game, and, as I say, Ruud saw it the same way.

BTW - fair enough about the sequence of the cards - I'd forgotten that. I have to say though, I felt that the referee was indiscriminately bad, rather than biased and bad!

Interestingly - I don't know where I stand on this: we're all used to seeing games go both ways, after all! - the commentators over here felt that it was the referee's early strictness which CAUSED the problems. They reckoned that the players spotted he was card happy, and then tried to exploit this to get opponents sent off.

I'm not entirely sure about this 'little shite' the Portugese were pulling...As far as I can see, niggling play is almost as much a hallmark of many Dutch sides as beautiful football. I saw a video of the Neeskens (sp.?)/Cruyff side the other day (have to admit, I'm too young to have seen then live), and they seemed to have a similar attitude problem...

I have to stress, I don't want to come over anti-Dutch. The Gullit-Van Basten-Rijkaard side was one of the greatest I've been lucky enough to see. I love a lot about Dutch football. However, I am very much anti this current Dutch side (and I should cut them some slack, with Robben being a Chelsea man).

[J.A.W.]

PPPS - Where the f... was Van Nistelroy???

See my post here.

[J.A.W.]

However, I am very much anti this current Dutch side (and I should cut them some slack, with Robben being a Chelsea man).

Talking about a diving expert...

[Alexander Hawkins]

It's the Dutch diving that I cannot stand

I'm not defending the Dutch here - I hate diving as much as you do - but they're not the only ones who are guilty. There's a lot of diving in this tournament, and I think it's not fair to single out the Dutch.

I think Ruud Gullit clouded Red's vision a bit here. The thing is, the Dutch hate diving. Even more when it's their own team doing it. So Gullit got upset and all ITV viewers with him. In the game I saw, the Portugese were much more eager to act than the Dutch. Which is not to say that the Dutch diving upset me more.

Well, I never cared much for Ruud Gullit's "analyses" anyway On Dutch TV his rambling goes on and on and on and on...

Ruud is prone to cloud my vision...after what he did here at Chelsea, I'll forgive him anything

I think I'm not putting myself across well here - I think I'm sounding too vehement. I think we're reading off the same page - I know you guys hate diving (don't all true fans, after all?), and it must be hugely frustrating to see your side do it! Same as I get pissed of with the English attitude despite the fact they are my 'home' team.

No offence meant at any stage . Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree about who was more culpable last night !

Anyway, I think there's little danger of Portugal going on to win the thing...

How about thoughts for today's games? I'll have Italy and Switzerland, although I agree that both could go the other way (I don't really know enough about the Ukrainians to call their game with any accuracy anyway).

[Alexander Hawkins]

However, I am very much anti this current Dutch side (and I should cut them some slack, with Robben being a Chelsea man).

Talking about a diving expert...

Yeah...I *think* he's getting better for us, but he's been guilty of some horrors, and it's simply embarrassing when it happens with one of your own players.

Apparently, one of his justifications for jumping around is that having broken his foot 3 times, he's eager to protect himself...

[J.A.W.]

However, I am very much anti this current Dutch side (and I should cut them some slack, with Robben being a Chelsea man).

Talking about a diving expert...

Yeah...I *think* he's getting better for us, but he's been guilty of some horrors, and it's simply embarrassing when it happens with one of your own players.

Apparently, one of his justifications for jumping around is that having broken his foot 3 times, he's eager to protect himself...

You should have seen him when he played for my "home team" (I'm not a fan), FC Groningen, before he went to PSV Eindhoven. A brilliant player ( ) and an even more brilliant diver... ( )