October Conns!

[ep1str0phy]

Just purchased "Andrew!!!" and "Where is Brooklyn?" for $13.00 each (steep, but significantly lower than they used to go for). I'm probably one of three people who buys these in shop (I'm in Berkeley, CA right now... both major shops down Telegraph put out only two/three copies at a time. I seldom see any movement, but that's the college crowd.).

"Andrew!!!" is a new spin, and it's phenomenal. Sound is good, ensemble is nice ("Judgment" is a favorite of mine). Early Hutch is always a plus (isn't there a late 60's/early 70's Mosaic on the way?).

[WD45]

None of them are at the local Borders in downtown Mpls. I even had a coupon printed out.

[Aftab]

found em all at my local brick and mortar - haven't spun any yet cause I'm stuck on the new Journey cd

[Aggie87]

found em all at my local brick and mortar - haven't spun any yet cause I'm stuck on the new Journey cd

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[Quincy]

My guess is the Conns don't sell like the RVGs.

But would they sell more if they were RVGs? Lower price, more readily available?

If anything deserves a stamp of approval (from the label), it's Fuchsia Swing Song and Contours.

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Certainly the lower price helps them sell too. Or I'm guessing it does, as I don't really follow sales figures.

One day during a big sale in a local Cd shop I saw someone pick up Fuchsia Swing Song and walk around for awhile. Ends up 10 minutes later he goes back to rack and puts it back. I so wanted to say "Don't do that," but he didn't seem like the friendliest of folks so I let it pass. But boy, what a sorry thing to put that one back in the rack!

[Soul Stream]

Bought 3 today at Borders. The Jackie, Booker and Hill. Put the Jackie in first and really digging it. One of his best and Lee is on fire...Lee makes this date extra special. Think Larry Kart really summed up my feelings on his liner notes. Lee and Jackie are a match made in heaven on this thing.

*...and also, I've officially given up pretending I like stuff like the Don Cherry.

Edited October 4, 2005 by Soul Stream

[Jazzdog]

Bought 3 today at Borders.  The Jackie, Booker and Hill.  Put the Jackie in first and really digging it.  One of his best and Lee is on fire...Lee makes this date extra special.  Think Larry Kart really summed up my feelings on his liner notes.  Lee and Jackie are a match made in heaven on this thing.

*...and also, I've officially given up pretending I like stuff like the Don Cherry.

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Funny...it could have been ME who posted that!!

heh

[felser]

Mosaic's been working on a Hutcherson/Land box for several years. I suspect they're having trouble getting clearance on the Cadet or Mainstream Land dates, probably the mainstream. I like Cherry's Complete Communion with Gato, don't like the other Blue Notes very much (or hardly any of his other solo stuff, truth be told). Suspect that will get me in trouble here, but so be it.

[felser]

The Hill and McLean titles that show up as RVG's are the most "famous" titles but them, the ones that will be touted as first purchases by those artists for the newbees. The Connoisseur titles are more esoteric in historical/critical terms, and, as pointed out, can be expected to sell less. Also simply titles that Van Gelder hasn't remastered. Who picks the RVG titles in each batch - Blue Note, Van Gelder, or a combo of both?

[Brad]

If it's a lower price, that's attractive. I assumed I'd have to pay throught the nose.

[ep1str0phy]

The Hill and McLean titles that show up as RVG's are the most "famous" titles but them, the ones that will be touted as first purchases by those artists for the newbees.  The Connoisseur titles are more esoteric in historical/critical terms, and, as pointed out, can be expected to sell less.  Also simply titles that Van Gelder hasn't remastered.  Who picks the RVG titles in each batch - Blue Note, Van Gelder, or a combo of both?

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Yeah, but there are some strange anomalies. "Action," "Am I Blue", "Reach Out"... maybe these are the ones that RVG got to first, but I'd think that "Fuchsia Swing Song" would have more commercial appeal (especially with three Miles sidemen onboard). Some of these RVG choices are remarkably esoteric, especially granted the glut of quality titles--highly touted by, let's face it, the very demographic that would be investing in these CDs--released under the Connoisseur label.

Elementary economics: we're being charged by the value with which we imbue the Connoisseur titles--otherwise, the C Series would be an unsound venture. There's high demand among a small contingency of jazzbos, so the market works us. Reasonable enough. What I don't understand is why anyone would think that "Reach Out" would be a more commerically viable album--thus reaping the benefits of a fold-out liner package, new liner notes, heavy distribution, relatively heavy promotion, and name recognition. Who's buying this stuff? And I know remastering jobs cost beaucoup bucks, but surely someone will lose profit over poorly chosen titles (whether or not RVG put his stamp on them). I'd like to think that this is all a part of BN's grand scheme to reissue their entire back catalogue, but as long as we're being selective, do we really need the fluff titles? (I like "Action," by the way.)

[sidewinder]

Mosaic's been working on a Hutcherson/Land box for several years.  I suspect they're having trouble getting clearance on the Cadet or Mainstream Land dates, probably the mainstream. 

Really ??

I for one would pre-order that set in a flash..

[David Ayers]

earlier conns are the same price on amazon.de.

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Thanks for the info. Many old Conns are indeed listed with a release date of October 14 and a price of 9.99 Euro.

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000CDL5V

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004GJVN/

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004GJVK/

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002ZBRZA/

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000589US/

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004GJVQ/

.

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Some on JPC, but with the original release dates.

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I've seen all of these at FOP stores in the UK recently priced at £5 each.

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Good tip. I may be near the Covent Garden Fopp in the very near future so I'll be sure to call in.

Since everything I am interested in seems to show up at £4.99 sooner rather than later it does make me wonder whether I should leap in and buy things when they first come out. I haven't got any of the CC Conns not even in non-CC editions, but if they keep sticking them in front of me at £4.99 I might start scooping them up (I held out when hmv.co.uk did this recently, but...). That said, the amazon.de offer on the new conns works out at a shade over £8 for a single CD including tax and shipping so that may be the way to go - if I can stomach ignoring the CC issues? Or maybe I should hold the line on my my Blue Note strike...

WE SHALL OVERCO-OME...

Edited October 5, 2005 by David Ayers

[felser]

I agree, McLean's 'Action' is awesome!

[felser]

Good point on the Mobley. All I can guess is that it's one of George Benson's rare appearances on Blue Note (only other one I can think of right off is the Larry Young, though there may be a few others).

[bertrand]

A quick search at jazzdisco.org (a far from definitive or accurate site, but good for quickie searches) shows George Benson on:

Lou Donaldson: Alligator Bogaloo 4/7/67

Hank Mobley: Reach Out! 1/19/68

Larry Young: Heaven On Earth 2/9/68

Lee Morgan: Taru 2/15/68

Lou Donaldson: Midnight Creeper: 3/15/68

Lonnie Smith: Live At Club Mozambique 5/21/70

Ronnie Foster: Cheshire Cat 3/21/75 (background vocals only)

Ronnie Foster: Cheshire Cat 3/24/75 (guitar and background vocals)

Stanley Turrentine: Straight Ahead 12/7/84

Freddie Hubbard: Life Flight 1/23/87

Bertrand.

[Guest akanalog]

any other impressions of these conns?

where do the cherrymcleanhillervin stack up in their respective discographies?

[connoisseur series500]

I got the Hill, Mclean, Ervin, and Quebec cds today. The Mclean is as good as anything else he's ever done. Nice Woody Shaw on the Ervin date. Excellent Andrew Hill. Getting used to the old time organ sound on Ike's 45s. Pretty good batch, I'd say.

How the heck did Blue Note ever decide to keep that Jackie Mac hidden in the vaults?

[felser]

A quick search at jazzdisco.org (a far from definitive or accurate site, but good for quickie searches) shows George Benson on:

Lou Donaldson: Alligator Bogaloo 4/7/67

Hank Mobley: Reach Out! 1/19/68

Larry Young: Heaven On Earth 2/9/68

Lee Morgan: Taru 2/15/68

Lou Donaldson: Midnight Creeper: 3/15/68

Lonnie Smith: Live At Club Mozambique 5/21/70

Ronnie Foster: Cheshire Cat 3/21/75 (background vocals only)

Ronnie Foster: Cheshire Cat 3/24/75 (guitar and background vocals)

Stanley Turrentine: Straight Ahead 12/7/84

Freddie Hubbard: Life Flight 1/23/87

Bertrand.

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Forgot about the Morgan (not a favorite of mine) and the Donaldson. The 70's and 80's stuff doesn't count! In general, the only 70's Blue Notes I remember being worth much were the last couple McCoy Tyner's for the label (which were awesome), and most of the Bobby Hutcherson stuff (very underrated). Other than that, a very sad time to see the great label desecrated, dying a sllllooowww death.

[ep1str0phy]

any other impressions of these conns?

where do the cherrymcleanhillervin stack up in their respective discographies?

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Having spun the Hill and Cherry quite a few times already, I have a notion or two...

"Where is Brooklyn?"--fine compositions all around, terrific playing, and wonderful group interplay. The power level here is tremendous. They let Pharoah out of the box for this one. This is one of those rare well-recorded early PS records that doesn't vamp off into oblivion (not that there's anything wrong with that). Grimes comes off extremely well, boasting remarkable technique and endurance (keeping up with high-velocity double-stops). Cherry is energized by his sidemen, often lapsing into scratchy, brassy passages redolent of the Ayler days. Blackwell holds the whole group together, retaining a sense of transparency that grounds the ensemble in groove (reminding everyone just where they are).

The only real problem with this session is that it's nowhere near as dynamic as either "Symphony for Improvisers" or "Complete Communion." Pharoah is completely indicative of the strengths and failings of this recording. His personal verve and sense of elation are so strong that they threaten to overwhelm the proceedings--it's like the old rock maxim (two volumes--loud and louder). The whole group follows suit. This isn't necessarily a bad thing--there's too little of this ensemble to go around--but "Brooklyn" is clearly missing some of the mayhem and schizophrenia of the other BNs.

A beautiful session, but not so idiosyncratic as it could have been--caveat emptor.

"Andrew!!!"--prime early Hill. In its own way, "Andrew!!!" is on par with "Point of Departure," "Judgment," "Black Fire" and the ilk. Despite the matching rhythm sections, this is nothing like "Dialogue". If it weren't for Joe Chambers--much less combustible, a little more "brainy" than Elvin Jones--I'd say that this was "Judgment" Pt. 2. Hill's melodies are less memorable than on previous sessions, but the group dynamic is simply stunning. The boys just take it somewhere else on this one. There's urgency, danger in the grooves. The rhythm section is just so tight that... well, it's heavy--not just "wow that's deep heavy"... Led Zeppelin heavy.

The individual contributions are fine. Richard Davis doesn't get enough credit; he's always been one of the most versatile, reliable bassists in the community, capable of playing even the most complex material with uncanny spirit. He locks right into Hill--a dizzying, whirlwind counterpoint. Hutcherson is as spirited as ever, and Chambers--well, he's as underrated as they come. I'd say that no other drummer was as well attuned to the BN progressive sound--which was, in the end, as much about space as anything else (there's not too much bombast, but there's a lot of fun). John Gilmore doesn't have a lot to do here; he gets in a number of good spots, but he's hardly the main attraction.

Cherish this sound--there's only so much of it out there.

Edited October 6, 2005 by ep1str0phy

[felser]

I got the Hill, Mclean, Ervin, and Quebec cds today.  The Mclean is as good as anything else he's ever done.  Nice Woody Shaw on the Ervin date.  Excellent Andrew Hill.  Getting used to the old time organ sound on Ike's 45s.  Pretty good batch, I'd say.

How the heck did Blue Note ever decide to keep that Jackie Mac hidden in the vaults?

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They also kept Lee Morgan's Infinity (with JMac) unreleased at the time, so it came as something of a shock in the early 80's (when both were finally released) to that they had done so much great recording together in the mid-60's. Consequences is more traditional than what Blue Note was releasing by McLean in that era (One Step Beyond, Destination, Out, Action, It's Time, Right Now, New and Old Gospel, Bout Soul), but is certainly far superior to the last two titles. As good as it is, I like 'Jacknife' even better. "On the Nile" is a great Charles Tolliver tune. Don't miss the Mosaic Select of him when it comes out - great great stuff.

[ep1str0phy]

I got the Hill, Mclean, Ervin, and Quebec cds today.  The Mclean is as good as anything else he's ever done.  Nice Woody Shaw on the Ervin date.  Excellent Andrew Hill.  Getting used to the old time organ sound on Ike's 45s.  Pretty good batch, I'd say.

How the heck did Blue Note ever decide to keep that Jackie Mac hidden in the vaults?

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They also kept Lee Morgan's Infinity (with JMac) unreleased at the time, so it came as something of a shock in the early 80's (when both were finally released) to that they had done so much great recording together in the mid-60's. Consequences is more traditional than what Blue Note was releasing by McLean in that era (One Step Beyond, Destination, Out, Action, It's Time, Right Now, New and Old Gospel, Bout Soul), but is certainly far superior to the last two titles. As good as it is, I like 'Jacknife' even better. "On the Nile" is a great Charles Tolliver tune. Don't miss the Mosaic Select of him when it comes out - great great stuff.

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"Jacknife" is indeed fine (my favorite BN McLean after "Destination Out" and "One Step Beyond"), but I wouldn't give "Gospel" and "Bout Soul" such short shrift. Jackie really stretches on those two--there's little on record quite like it. And I like Ornette on trumpet.

[LarryCurleyMoe]

I picked up the McLean and am about to buy the Andrew Hill today...a quick question:

I went to my vinyl collection at home and looked for "Andrew' - thought I already had. Rather, I came across Andrew Hill's "Compulsion" album with John Gilmore, et al...a similar line up BUT WITH FREDDIE HUBBARD on trumpet. Has "Compulsion" been reissued on cd? Only on Mosaic "Complete Andrew Hill??"

Edited October 6, 2005 by LarryCurleyMoe

[JSngry]

"Andrew!!!"--prime early Hill. In its own way, "Andrew!!!"... Hill's melodies are less memorable than on previous sessions...John Gilmore doesn't have a lot to do here; he gets in a number of good spots, but he's hardly the main attraction.

Cherish this sound--there's only so much of it out there.

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Will respectfully disagree on the first two points. Out of all of Hill's first wave of BNs, I find both the melodies and forms (especially the forms) of these pieces to be the most clearly deliniated. Which is not to say that they're "better", just that they "stick" as complete, fully formed entities almost immediately, with little or no need for repeaed listenings to figure out what, in general, is going on technically. I'd even go so far as to say that for the "lay fan", that this is the most "accesible" of Hill's early BN dates.

As for Gilmore, hey - both of his recordings w/Andrew are "desert island" recordings for me. He really brings a special flavor to the music, and his interpretations, in both melody and solos, are as perfect and as organic as any horn player that Hill's ever recorded with, imo. His natural style of fragmented motivic variation is such a perfect conceptual match for Hill's similarly fragmented-yet-together compositional style. I think he really gets inside the music in a way that few, if any, other horn players have.

No disagreement on that third point, though. None whatsoever!

[mgraham333]

For me Symphony For Improvisors is the Conn and Where Is Brooklyn? is the RVG. I couldn't make it through the former, but appreciate and starting to enjoy the latter.