Is rap tomorrow's jazz?

[Noj]

Compiling complete. All packages will mail out tomorrow. Here are the participants:

MartyJazz

Sal

GregN & organissimo

Dr. Rat

PHILLYQ

Indestructible!

ghost of miles

JohnB

A FEW DISCLAIMERS:

I have included one track which, in terms of lyric content, is completely devoid of any redeeming quality whatsoever. In fact, it is downright offensive. There are other songs which definitely can be considered offensive for other reasons. There are songs with four-letter words. There are songs with strong sexual overtones. There are songs with strong racial overtones. There are songs which discuss topics such as drug dealing, drug use, prostitution, and murder.

Sequencing was heavily considered. Certain tracks follow others for a reason.

Thanks all for participating, I look forward to your comments. I'm just as interested in reading negative comments as positive ones, and I think I've provided fuel for both! I'd only ask that everyone be specific either way.

[Rosco]

Damn! Forgot about this BFT idea...

Too late to get in on this Noj?

[Noj]

Damn! Forgot about this BFT idea...

Too late to get in on this Noj?

←

No problem, just PM me your address Rosco.

[Rosco]

Cool... it's on the way

[John L]

Far more interesting to me, from a sociological standpoint, is that hip-hop, by and large, is the first African-American popular music form that doesn't have some kind of roots in church music (this is not always the case, but it is far more often than not). The implications of that are more complicated, nuanced, telling and significant than any talk of explicit adolexcent fantasies now being acted out with relative ease.

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That is an interesting point. It is also interesting that Hip Hop is the first African Amercian popular music that has opened up a serious generation gap in the African American community itself. In general, past generations of African Americans listened and partied to the same basic music. Sure, there were some nuances. Older generations from the South may have still preferred the more low down bluesy stuff at a time when their children were more interested in uptown soul. But there was no huge generation gap. Older generations generally embraced soul and funk as well. But Hip Hop is a youth music in the sense that Rock and Roll used to be.

As far as basic messages in the (commercial) music, the contrast with past African American music is also very strong. That may be related to the greater distance from church music that you describe. 60s Soul music was spiritually uplifting. It was all about love, devotion, respect, moving on up, we're gonna make it, celebration, etc. The lyrical content was adult. The messages of hopelessness and adolescent content in a lot of gangsta Hip Hop bear more of a resemblence to late 70s Punk Rock.

Edited August 22, 2005 by John L

[Dr. Rat]

Far more interesting to me, from a sociological standpoint, is that hip-hop, by and large, is the first African-American popular music form that doesn't have some kind of roots in church music (this is not always the case, but it is far more often than not). The implications of that are more complicated, nuanced, telling and significant than any talk of explicit adolexcent fantasies now being acted out with relative ease.

I think you're only saying the same thing I'm saying from a musical perspective. I say black culture used to get played out in a much more stable and encompasssing social context, you point out the fact that this is the first black music not to partake of church music. Sounds like a two sides of the same story to me.

I'm certainly not suggesting that we lose our heads over what hip-hop might be depicting. I'm just saying that it doesn't get off the hook just because prior generations of adolescents may have had similar sex fantasies. I'm very resistent to the line of argument which seems to run: "well, it's popular with black youth, therefore it gets a free pass."

I'm just saying the possibilty that there might be a problem should be entertained. Nothing more. It's not as if there aren't plenty of practioners of the art form who would say there's a problem: problem being that if mass media has taken over some of the role of declining institutions like the black church, people producing it should be mindful of that fact, and they often aren't.

--eric

[Jim Alfredson]

But as yet, what I've heard is repetitive and primitive with pretty much no sophistication.

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Where's the Twizzler when we need him? I'm sure he could find something in his collection of old newspapers/magazines that says the exact same thing about Little Richard, Chuck Berry, etc.

[JSngry]

Far more interesting to me, from a sociological standpoint, is that hip-hop, by and large, is the first African-American popular music form that doesn't have some kind of roots in church music (this is not always the case, but it is far more often than not). The implications of that are more complicated, nuanced, telling and significant than any talk of explicit adolexcent fantasies now being acted out with relative ease.

I think you're only saying the same thing I'm saying from a musical perspective. I say black culture used to get played out in a much more stable and encompasssing social context, you point out the fact that this is the first black music not to partake of church music. Sounds like a two sides of the same story to me.

Well, ok, but "sociological" and "musical" mean two different things to me. And to that end, I'd suggest that it's not jsut "black culture" that's getting "played out in a much more stable and encompasssing social context". Far from it. You think that all the debilitatingly whiny and/or screaming white rock bands are stemming from a "healthy" environment? I think not!

[JSngry]

I'm certainly not suggesting that we lose our heads over what hip-hop might be depicting. I'm just saying that it doesn't get off the hook just because prior generations of adolescents may have had similar sex fantasies. I'm very resistent to the line of argument which seems to run: "well, it's popular with black youth, therefore it gets a free pass."

←

This notion of a "free pass" is yours, not mine. I merely suggest evaluating the situation objectively, and with a historical/social perspective that extends beyond the last 15 or so years, and which extends beyond a specific age/racial demographic. It's tough, I know, but failure to do so results in a lot of hot air, which in the present climate, is not necessarily good for the ozone layer.

[JSngry]

I'm just saying the possibilty that there might be a problem should be entertained. Nothing more. It's not as if there aren't plenty of practioners of the art form who would say there's a problem: problem being that if mass media has taken over some of the role of declining institutions like the black church, people producing it should be mindful of that fact, and they often aren't.

←

Who said there's not a problem? Not me. But blaming the music and/or the media is the same old "blame the messenger" game, which is, of course, good for opportuniosts and demagogues, but not much else.

It's not like people are being forced to make, buy, and enjoy this stuff, and it's not like everybody who does buys wholesale into the "lifestyle". Far from it. For plenty of people, it's just a soundtrack for the moment and not too much more.

But for those who do buy into it to any degree, you gotta ask why they do it? It must meet some kind of a need that's not being met otherwise. And what that need is, why it exists, and why it's not being met otherwise is a lot more pertinent than blaming the media and the music for creating social decay. The music and the media ain't created nothing,m they merely capitalize on a pre-existing opportunity. When "the people" feel the need for romance and hope over hedonism and nihilism, they'll buy that kind of music in quantity. It is being made.

Until then, jazz causes sex crimes, and rock-and-roll causes juvenile delinquency. The music creates the behavior out of nothing rather than the behavior latching on to a partial element of the music. Of course.

[JSngry]

The messages of hopelessness and adolescent content in a lot of gangsta Hip Hop bear more of a resemblence to late 70s Punk Rock.

Yeah, but the Punks were mostly white. That means that their angst was valid.

[Dr. Rat]

Far more interesting to me, from a sociological standpoint, is that hip-hop, by and large, is the first African-American popular music form that doesn't have some kind of roots in church music (this is not always the case, but it is far more often than not). The implications of that are more complicated, nuanced, telling and significant than any talk of explicit adolexcent fantasies now being acted out with relative ease.

I think you're only saying the same thing I'm saying from a musical perspective. I say black culture used to get played out in a much more stable and encompasssing social context, you point out the fact that this is the first black music not to partake of church music. Sounds like a two sides of the same story to me.

Well, ok, but "sociological" and "musical" mean two different things to me. And to that end, I'd suggest that it's not jsut "black culture" that's getting "played out in a much more stable and encompasssing social context". Far from it. You think that all the debilitatingly whiny and/or screaming white rock bands are stemming from a "healthy" environment? I think not!

←

Agreed.

--eric

[Dr. Rat]

I'm just saying the possibilty that there might be a problem should be entertained. Nothing more. It's not as if there aren't plenty of practioners of the art form who would say there's a problem: problem being that if mass media has taken over some of the role of declining institutions like the black church, people producing it should be mindful of that fact, and they often aren't.

←

Who said there's not a problem? Not me. But blaming the music and/or the media is the same old "blame the messenger" game, which is, of course, good for opportuniosts and demagogues, but not much else.

It's not like people are being forced to make, buy, and enjoy this stuff, and it's not like everybody who does buys wholesale into the "lifestyle". Far from it. For plenty of people, it's just a soundtrack for the moment and not too much more.

But for those who do buy into it to any degree, you gotta ask why they do it? It must meet some kind of a need that's not being met otherwise. And what that need is, why it exists, and why it's not being met otherwise is a lot more pertinent than blaming the media and the music for creating social decay. The music and the media ain't created nothing,m they merely capitalize on a pre-existing opportunity. When "the people" feel the need for romance and hope over hedonism and nihilism, they'll buy that kind of music in quantity. It is being made.

Until then, jazz causes sex crimes, and rock-and-roll causes juvenile delinquency. The music creates the behavior out of nothing rather than the behavior latching on to a partial element of the music. Of course.

←

I am in total agreement both on the importance of a "demand side" perspective on what's going on and about the demagogues. Just I think a) there are peolpe who can do a lot better than they are on the supply side, they could be leading demand rather than following it; b) we're better off not ceding this issue to the windbags and demagogues . . . or perhaps i should say "you are better off . . . "

--eric

[Dr. Rat]

The messages of hopelessness and adolescent content in a lot of gangsta Hip Hop bear more of a resemblence to late 70s Punk Rock.

Yeah, but the Punks were mostly white. That means that their angst was valid.

←

One thing it does mean is that these folks had a lot more to lose, and that the angst was just a show for the most part and by 1989 they were mostly trying to figure out how to get gigs at the Mercantile Exhange.

--eric

[Noj]

All packages have been mailed.

[Kalo]

Yes, but is Classical yesterday's Jazz?

[Kalo]

But as yet, what I've heard is repetitive and primitive with pretty much no sophistication.

←

Where's the Twizzler when we need him? I'm sure he could find something in his collection of old newspapers/magazines that says the exact same thing about Little Richard, Chuck Berry, etc.

←

"Repetitive and primitive with pretty much no sophistication..."

Aren't those their strong points?

(I loves me some 1950s R&R!)

[John L]

The messages of hopelessness and adolescent content in a lot of gangsta Hip Hop bear more of a resemblence to late 70s Punk Rock.

Yeah, but the Punks were mostly white. That means that their angst was valid.

←

One thing it does mean is that these folks had a lot more to lose, and that the angst was just a show for the most part and by 1989 they were mostly trying to figure out how to get gigs at the Mercantile Exhange.

--eric

←

I am currently living most of the time in Russia. Now Russian Punks are scary. They are the real deal that the upper middle class kids were pretending to be in England and the US. They have nothing to lose, and are completely ready to do anything, including die, at any time.

Edited August 23, 2005 by John L

[JSngry]

I'm sure their outlook would change if they'd just listen to different music.

[John L]

I'm sure their outlook would change if they'd just listen to different music.

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But I wouldn't try it am home with one of them.

[Dr. Rat]

I'm sure their outlook would change if they'd just listen to different music.

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Surely no one would be so stupid as to suggest that music can do anyhting whatsoever to change society or people's outlook on life.

--eric

[JSngry]

How can a gift be a gift if it is refused by the recipient?

[Indestructible!]

All packages have been mailed.

←

Hi Noj,

Great! I've got a busy week of work this week, but I'll try to listen closely this weekend. BTW, the explicit content of the tracks you included (as per your description) doesn't bother me a bit... I was/still am one of those "angst-ridden punks" that Jim described above, so I'm pretty sure I've heard it all!

Cheers,

Shane

[Jazz Kat]

Yes, but is Classical yesterday's Jazz?

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I dont understand that. I just can't. I dont get it.,

[.:.impossible]

Is hip hop over-intellectualized?

Wha?