Paul Chambers

[Guest]

O.K., let's back up. My name's Troy. I'm new here. I hate upsetting people and hate even more offending people. The internet is a strange media, because you can chat with total strangers like you're friends, but in fact, you don't know anything about each other. I understand that many people on this board have been for a while and have a feel for what each other is about. I don't have proper context for who I'm talking to and none of you have context for me yet. I deeply regret that I started off by offending someone close to Mr. Chambers. Please accept my apology.

Here are the facts: I didn't know him. I'm not from his generation, I have no "solid information" about the intimate details of his life. Therefore, we're in violent agreement that I shouldn't have come here and put into writing what I did. As jazz fans/freaks we sometimes think we have a connection with our heros because we've listenned to every note they've recorded over and over, read every word we can find in print and discussed them in a million late night conversations.

Let me go back and say again that P.C. is a very significant person in the development of BeBop and jazz bass, which I love enough to play myself. I have tremendous respect for his playing. I also said a few negative things about his playing in my post, which I don't really regret, because I feel like I do have some first hand knowledge to base those opinions on, but I wish I hadn't posted them on my first day on the forum. I've been listenning to "1st Bassman" for about 2 days straight and it's a really solid session. When he was good he was unbelievably great.

Now, just to kind of defend myself a little bit. What I was reacting to was this:

  wigwise said:

I tried to ask him more questions about Paul, but he didn't want to go there, for some unknown reason.

I don't know what this particular unnammed musician's aversion to say more was, but it reminded me of a number of conversations I've had with musicians, some of whom may have been there, some of whom were repeating what they heard. I say that only so that you don't start believing that I say things based on nothing. I hang out, I love jazz, I play a little and I have an unquenchable thirst of the history of the music. I read jazz biographies and when someone with knowledge and context talks about the music and the history and the people, I listen and prod them for more. I remember reading or being told that Joe Henderson credited Clifford Brown for influencing him to be clean, but I don't remember where I got that or if it's true. Assuming it is, I don't know if he meant with his example or from actually helping him. I've also heard, usually in hushed voices and with sad eyes, stories about some of the troubles Mr. Chambers had. Not from spiteful people, but people who love the music, respect his contribution to it and were talking about the problems that many of those great musicians had. I've had good conversations about the reasons that drugs got so many of those people. It was a hard life and a hard time. It's still a hard life and not sleeping, keeping horible hours and making no money can influence you to look for help in things that aren't in the end helpful, then and now. It's not a judgement.

I've heard Prestige referred to as the "junkie label" because they reportedly paid cash (very little) for some of the greatest musicians ever to come in and play, but not rehearse, not record enough takes to get really great records out and not tune that freaking piano. I've heard/read that many of the people who played on Prestige did so at times in their lives and careers where drugs had big influence on them and a little cash was supportive to their habit. But, I don't know if it's true, it's part of the aural history of jazz. (I have some favorite Prestige records, by the way.) In fact, I can't really claim that any of the stories that I've heard and read about jazz are true. It's just history as told now. I read Mingus's autobiography and I've read critisisms that it was largely fiction, even though the man wrote it himself. Unless you were there, you don't know. I do have some good 2nd gerneration stories passed to me through people who were close to people like Ray Brown and Don Lamphere that I have no reason to doubt, but that's the best I'll do in my lifetime with respect to stories about the era of Jazz I love the most, the 40's-60's.

My wife's a journalist, by her professional standards I shouldn't have typed what I typed. If it hadn't been quoted in a response, I would go back and delete it now to erase it from record. So, please accept my apology. I plan to hang around and banter with you guys for a while, so over time, I think you'll see that I'm not into a sullying reputations and cutting down people who I respect. I got off to a bad start. I'm sure that I will hear what I'll hear again, because that story does seem to come around every so often, but I will be careful what I repeat, especially when it is negative.

When there is a P.C. biography available, I will read it and be better informed. However, I won't really know then if what I read is true either. I'll never have a first hand account of anything from the records I love. For those of you who were there and have what I don't, I look forward to reading what you have to say about your experiences.

peace and bop,

Troy

Edited December 11, 2005 by TroyK

[JSngry]

Troy, you're cool from what I read in this thread. Some people here get really bugged about any mention of drugs and jazz, but afaic, it's a part of the history and should be dealt with as such, objectively, truthfully, and without sensationalism (which also means no moral indignation on either side). The still living, that's a different dynamic. But history is history.

There's no shortage of rumors in this music. Some are actually true, some are exaggerations of truths, some are myths built on truth, some take an isolate incident or two and extrapolate it out into a personality profile, on and on and on. If you weren't there, you can't know. so you ask questions, put what you've heard out for discussion, and see what comes back. It's the only way to learn.

I though that Valerie was actually pretty civil in her response, and she told you what she knew. Others have done the same, it seems, and the results seem contradictory. Just keep in mind that we all have many faces, and that seldom do we show them all to any one person. We're all complicated creatures, some more than others, so judgement is not something to be rendered lightly, if at all.

[Guest]

  JSngry said:

We're all complicated creatures, some more than others, so judgement is not something to be rendered lightly, if at all.

Thanks for your nice response. I regret that what I said implied judgement. None was intended. It is about an obsession of the past, present and future history of the art.

[ValerieB]

thanks for your thoughtful response, troyk. you're obviously a cool cat and i look forward to your future posts!

just for the record, i have no problem hearing about musicians and drugs or discussing it. just don't like reading something that sounds very negative about someone who can't defend themself and where there's no substance or confirmation. paul was a very sweet cat even with all his problems.

[JamesJazz]

Perhaps I overeacted - in fact, I've never met a junkie whose goal was to get folks strung-out. More the opposite is true. And if you use dope for any length of time, you'll end up sellin' that stuff and the bigger your habit, the more you'll sell...and the more desperate you will become.

I never met PC but have spoken to musicians who knew him pretty well during his early years in Detroit, and Paul had some problems.

I also am wary of the impact of the internet - immediate and pervasive. And I guess I get defensive, sometimes, about musicians. How many times have we read about Billie's dope habit, her deathbed scene, etc? And people who don't give a rats ass about jazz pick that shit up and run with it.

Anyway, Troyk, welcome and please don't allow my knee-jerk reaction spoil for you what is a very informative forum...

[Guest]

Well, I got started with a bang, huh? You were all right to call me on it. I also think that there was a lot interpreted into what I wrote (understandably) that was not intended. I have never heard that he was a dealer or that his goal was to get people hooked. That's not what I intended to imply. I really intended to comment more on his playing. Amongst bassists, this conversation comes up. He was clearly a master of the bass and on certain recordings it's difficult to reconcile what he played with what he was capible of playing. So, parallels are made. Sometimes it's discussed sort of academically amongst bassist, which is more how I intended than judgemental. Still, an error in judgement regarding the tone and context of this thread. I don't want to clarify furhter what I meant or was basing it on, because it's clearly a good conversation to let lie.

I enjoyed reading Valarie's description of him as a "sweet guy". I've never heard that before because so little is known about him personally. My heart's impresson of him is already different. For my self impossed penance, I will look forward to reading his biography(s) when available and attempt to learn more about the man than I am able to get from his playing and the stories.

Now, I'd like to officially announce my retirement from this thread. I've done my damage and am going to take my slice of humble pie and lessons learned to another thread. As a side note, don't think I'll let you kick me around as a habit. I'll get self ritious about something sooner or later and them I'll hell on wheels.

[Chuck Nessa]

  JamesJazz said:

I've never met a junkie whose goal was to get folks strung-out.

Most "really strung out junkies" I've met are looking for money. This certainly does not preclude building the customer base. Time for everybody to take heads out of the sand concerning artists admired for their work.

[BruceW]

Welcome TroyK,

First, let me say I went to high school with Paul. Terrific person and musician. What happened to him later in music happened to maybe a thousand other guys. I don't see any reason to keep the thread going about Paul's problems. However, I know where you are coming from when you say this is your first visit to the board and you are critised because your opinion and/or knowledge is a little different than the main stream. Man, I had the same experience and we were only talking about basketball and I am a Piston fan. Seems I stepped on a lot of toes, seems others can say what they want but by my being new I should be restricted in my comments or be criticised. Ok, I accepted that but when I came back to the board later, it was like I was talking to myself. Lots of people making comments all around mine but no one responding. Haven't really posted much since because of this elite attitude that quite a few posters have. Not fair but that is life. The bulletin boards are really great for information but one must recognize that a great deal of people use the bulletin boards to satisfy their own narcisstic beliefs that they in fact, have greater intelligence than anyone else.

So that means I am pushing 70 and like RP said, You can't be old and be a fool etc.....

Let's see who bites.....

[7/4]

  BruceW said:

Welcome TroyK,

First, let me say I went to high school with Paul. Terrific person and musician. What happened to him later in music happened to maybe a thousand other guys. I don't see any reason to keep the thread going about Paul's problems. However, I know where you are coming from when you say this is your first visit to the board and you are critised because your opinion and/or knowledge is a little different than the main stream. Man, I had the same experience and we were only talking about basketball and I am a Piston fan. Seems I stepped on a lot of toes, seems others can say what they want but by my being new I should be restricted in my comments or be criticised. Ok, I accepted that but when I came back to the board later, it was like I was talking to myself. Lots of people making comments all around mine but no one responding. Haven't really posted much since because of this elite attitude that quite a few posters have. Not fair but that is life. The bulletin boards are really great for information but one must recognize that a great deal of people use the bulletin boards to satisfy their own narcisstic beliefs that they in fact, have greater intelligence than anyone else.

So that means I am pushing 70 and like RP said, You can't be old and be a fool etc.....

Let's see who bites.....

Stick around...post more often.

[Guest akanalog]

troy, you are not stepping on anyones toes.

please share anything you have.

this is a reasonably small (no offense) online community.

it is not like you are spreading terrible rumors which will stop people from listening to paul chambers work.

any stories that help show the men behind the music are welcome and if someone can refute or add to something you or anyone else says, then all the better.

[Guest]

I apprecaite the encouragement. I don't have a problem with anyone's pushback on my comment. I appreciate your observation that sometimes people seem to be arguing with something that you didn't say. I feel that some of the responses defended things that are worse that what I intened to imply and it's tempting to keep clarifying, but I honestly don't want to take this particular conversation any further.

I have updated my profile with a blog about myself to frame all my future posts. I'll pick my controversial topics more carefully in the future, but I do think there are some kindred spirits in this community and intend to stick around for a while. Some of those kindred spirits challenged me in this post and some defended me, by the way.

Paul Chambers was a great bassist and I can't imagine how my record collection would be different without him. It's gratifying to hear from people who knew him about him as a person. He is one of the greats that I don't have a human personna for in my heart. Not much is known about him personally, aside from his amazing discography and that he had personal struggles common to a lot people in jazz and out. Some of that has to do with being a bassist. I don't know much about Butch Warren, Sam Jones, Doug Watkins, George Marrow...either and I'm obsessed with those guys...well some of them. While Jimmy Blanton, Paul Chambers, Oscar Pettifford, etc brought bass up in the mix and off the back line, we didn't start associating with them as people until post-OPT Ray Brown, Scott Lafaro, NHOP, etc. Now, Dave Holland receives award after award as a band leader and John Clayton and Christian McBride head university programs. They all contributed to that. Bass is my personal obsession so I could go on, but let's do so in a different thread.

Anyone want to talk about Butch Warren?

[Guest]

Dude, stop it please. I never said PC was a drug dealer. Reading back on my post, I can see that what I did say could have been interpreted that way, but it's not what I meant and I'm not going to explain what I did mean, because I SWEAR I'm done with this thread. I just can't let that stand.

If we want to keep going with this thread, how about someone starts a "Cats and Smack" thread so it can stop contaminating the PC thread. This started because someone posted that they loved his playing and thought he was the greatest jazz bassist of all times.

I'm not trying to be a sensitive pansy, but I'm seriously remorseful that what I wrote led us from there to here.

[7/4]

  TroyK said:

Dude, stop it please. I never said PC was a drug dealer. Reading back on my post, I can see that what I did say could have been interpreted that way, but it's not what I meant and I'm not going to explain what I did mean, because I SWEAR I'm done with this thread. I just can't let that stand.

If we want to keep going with this thread, how about someone starts a "Cats and Smack" thread so it can stop contaminating the PC thread. This started because someone posted that they loved his playing and thought he was the greatest jazz bassist of all times.

I'm not trying to be a sensitive pansy, but I'm seriously remorseful that what I wrote led us from there to here.

Oh, chill out. You're among friends.

[BruceW]

7/4

I just really took note of your sign off message. Those are words of wisdom worth being digested by everyone on this board......

HAVE A GLASS OF SOMETHING, PLAY SOME TUNES AND RELAX

Edited December 12, 2005 by BruceW

[7/4]

  BruceW said:

7/4

I just really took note of your sign off message. Those are words of wisdom worth being digested by everyone on this board......

HAVE A GLASS OF SOMETHING, PLAY SOME TUNES AND RELAX

Oh yes, but with in reason folks! Don't drink and drive!