Tell me why I should get the Buddy Rich set?

[Chuck Nessa]

Finally... as a complete layman (read - non-musician...) does his drumming sound the tiniest bit like Art Blakely????

No.

[JSngry]

Chuck will think I've totally gone off the deep end when I say this, but I do hear a basic conceptual similarity between Rich & Elvin. Totally different vibes obviously, but that constant motion underneath the music is something both players share. On the 60s big band sides, it's like hearing Elvin play with a big band if

Elvin was a much older, hyperactive, egotistical white guy who had come up in the Swing Era.

[Chuck Nessa]

[Stefan Wood]

[neveronfriday]

Ttally different vibes obviously, but that constant motion underneath the music is something both players share. On the 60s big band sides, it's like hearing Elvin play with a big band if Elvin was a much older, hyperactive, egotistical white guy who had come up in the Swing Era.

←

Hm.

It is certainly true that both can sound very "busy", but the main difference (for me) seems to be that whereas Buddy Rich played things clean to the point of seeming too clinical at times, Jones was a much more emotional and raunchy (meant in a positive way) drummer. In my eyes, the two are completely different in their approach.

[JSngry]

In their approach, sure, totally different. As well as in thier attitude. As you say, rich was totally about clean and precise, all metrical/metronomic and shit. But in terms of what they were going for, yes - totally different as to their personal backgrounds/situations and the musical manifestations thereof, but otherwise, more similar than different, I'd say. You don't hear it in the Swing Era Rich, because he was still "playing the style" (or the role), or even so much in the 50s (definitely not on the Bird/Diz/Monk Granz date, for which even the most severe castigation of his work therein to date has not been adequate), where he's still playing an essentially Swing Era style, and to hyper extremes. But by the time the mid-60s roll around and he forms his first big band, you can definitely tell that he's been checking out, not bop or Hard Bop, but Elvin. Not in terms of looseness, polymetricisms, or such, but just in terms of providing a constant "chattering" underneath the music that didn't rely on Swing mechanisms. The loud rim shots are all but gone, replaced by a running commentary from the snare that seems to me like a Rich (re)interpretation of Elvin's game.

You could also make the same (possibly even stronger) case for Philly Joe, but I think that Elvin is probably who caught Rich's ear, although I've no doubt whatsoever that he'd have denied it vehemently. Philly was somebody who no doubt admired Rich's chops, but Buddy probably heard him as not doing anything that he couldn't do (technically, of course), but Elvin, well, Elvin was a whole 'nother world.

[Bill Nelson]

Did Buddy ever mention Elvin in a DownBeat interview or Blindfold Test?

(He sure let us know what he thought of Ginger Baker!)

[marcello]

Did Buddy ever mention Elvin in a DownBeat interview or Blindfold Test?

(He sure let us know what he thought of Ginger Baker!)

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Here's something related, from Pat LaBarbera, who played with both.

"For Pat, though, years on the road with Buddy Rich and a decade or more with Elvin Jones have left their mark."

"Elvin told me he was always trying to sound like Buddy Rich but it just didn’t come out that way," says Pat.

Buddy loved Elvin, Phiil Joe and Max.

And they loved him.

Edited August 21, 2005 by marcello

[johnagrandy]

Hmmm ... Buddy Rich ... Maynard Ferguson ...

When I was in HS & college late 70s, 80s, those were the two #1 attractions almost everyone wanted to check out. High tempos, wild solos (Menza), screaming trumpets. And I seem to remember almost everyone in both those bands was white. Could be wrong. Hard to remember.

Never got into Buddy's earlier stuff. For me, he was a guy who played all these HS and college festivals. Sure, clubs too, but no matter where, he generally had this really young audience. Which meant that the music didn't deal with any of the serious issues in life. It was all about youth. Kind of like owning a Mustang or a motorcycle.

Nothing wrong with that ... except how old were Maynard and Buddy at that time? In their mid 50s I think. They didn't wanna grow old.

As for any comparisons with Blakey , Elvin , Roach ... these make no sense to me. My knowledge is limited because I never listened to all those old Rich sides, but I just can't imagine Rich and Blakey existing in the same plane.

A drummer like Blakey is propelling the improviser into realms they didn't dream possible. Bu was transendental.

Hubbard said it "After you play with him, it feels empty playing with most other drummers. He gives you so much support."

As for Elvin, I saw him at his final concert. The man is staring at imminent death with a huge beautiful smile on his face and you completely forget he's about to die because even though he can barely play and still he's giving so much warmth to you. More than you can possibly give back.

Another thing ... wasn't BR known for treating his employees like toilet paper ? I could have a complete misinterpretation of the man, but he's always been a kind of Sinatra character to me. Yeah, you listen to Frank to learn how to phrase a ballad, because maybe no vocalist was better at that, but the guy was all twisted up inside.

At least Maynard was/is a genuinely cool cat.