Tell me why I should get the Buddy Rich set?

[Jazzmoose]

I'm not a fan of Buddy Rich, and don't really enjoy his work with others. On the other hand, I love his drum solos. And I normally hate drum solos. Most drum solos leave me bored; his leave me slackjawed and sweating. I guess this is one of those "mixed emotion" things...

[Dan Gould]

I think its utterly ridiculous to say that Rich is insignificant or undeserving of the Mosaic treatment. As Jim says, like him or hate him, you ought to be able to recognize him for what he was.

And I say that while tending to agree with Brad about the CD with Sweets and about the relative appeal of Rich as a drummer vs Blakey as a drummer. This one is not on my short list of Mosaic sets that I really want.

But Rich as an "odd choice" for a Mosaic set? That's just nuts.

[tranemonk]

Wow... Js... You go.. taking names and kicking behind!!!!

Phew!!!

One of the interesting things is that I haven't heard this much disagreement about a musician since a Wynton rant.... This has got me even more intrigued....

Lawd help us when we find out who's doing the remastering on this... Talk about disagreement....

But I am intrigued.... I wish I could get a taste or sample of this before deciding to buy....

[JSngry]

If you've heard that Moon (and other labels) live thing of the Rich small group w/Sonny Criss & Kenny Drew from Birdland(?), you'll get an idea of what the best of this set will sound like. Non bad at all, but it does wear me down after the first few tunes. "Relentless" is the word that comes to mind. But like I said, it's honest. totally. And taken a tune or two at a time, most energizing!

Now, if you've heard the live set with Flip Phillips from Miami, you'll get an idea of what the worst of it will sound like. Or so I hope - anything beyond that should be confiscated as a Threat To Humankind....

[JSngry]

I haven't heard this much disagreement about a musician since a Wynton rant.... 

An interesting comparison, although not entirely accurate - Wynton's techniques is "merely" flawless, but Rich's was truly "superhuman". And Rich truly came up "inside" the music over decades (literally over half a centruy!), whereas Wynton caught a whiff of it and then went about trying to re-create it in his own image.

But, yeah, those are two players about whom it's easy (too easy, imo) to let one's feelings about their music obscure an objective evaluation of their instrumental abilities. I've got no problem with saying that "they suck" at any given moment, but that doesn't mean that I think that they can't play, or that they are average-at-best players of their respective instruments. Far from it.

[Brad]

Hey, to each his own. Intersting comments by Jim and Lon. Don't agree necessarily. I just don't think he ranks up there with the best drummers. Yes, he can play; perhaps I slightly misspoke by saying that technically he's not gifted. In that regard, I lean more to Jim's opinion. Technically, yes, artist, no. The comparison to Babe Ruth is ill placed. Babe Ruth is one of the most significant players to play the game. If you want compare Max to the Babe, that's fine. Rich to Ruth, that does a disservice to the Babe.

That's my opinion. You've got yours. So be it.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I assume you've heard the Rich vs. Roach album. You don't think that as a drummer Buddy *at least* keeps up with Max on that?

If you say Ruth is one of the most significant players in the game, I'd say the comparison was spot on!

Mike

[RDK]

I'm actually not that familiar with Rich - though my drum teacher, back when i was ten, adored him - and I haven't been knocked out by what I have heard, but I do know that he was a significant and renowned jazz drummer. I know it doesn't count for much, but if you ask the average guy on the street to name the jazz drummer, more people would tell you Rich than Blakey.

[vibes]

But I am intrigued....  I wish I could get a taste or sample of this before deciding to buy....

←

You can get a sample: Buy one of these:

Blues Caravan

Buddy and Sweets

Both are easily obtained, and I'm pretty sure both will be in the set. If you like them, then buy the set. If not, then at least you haven't spent a ton of money. Personally, I like both quite a bit, at least, the parts where Buddy's not soloing.

[Chuck Nessa]

Buddy may/probably have/has as much technique as any drummer in all music history BUT I will take Blakey, Big Sid, Tough, Krupa, Blackwell, Altschul, PJJ, etc for MUSIC.

Kinda' like saying he can bench press 2000 lbs. - so friggin' what.

edit to add Greer, Jo Jones, Barbarin, Dodds, etc.

Edited August 6, 2005 by Chuck Nessa

[Don Brown]

I'm with you Chuck. Nice to see someone mention the great Big Sid Catlett. Now there was a musical drummer. And, of course, he was Philly Joe's principal inspiration.

[Brad]

Buddy may/probably has as much technique as any drummer in all music history BUT I will take Blakey, Big Sid, Tough, Krupa, Blackwell, Altschul, PJJ, etc for MUSIC.

Kinda' like saying he can bench press 2000 lbs. - so friggin' what.

←

Now, we're talkin

[John Tapscott]

You should get this set because I suspect there will be some great music here.

I base this opinion on two Rich Verve CD's I have from this general period - "This One's for Basie" (with a "small" big band) and Gene Krupa- Buddy Rich "Krupa and Rich". I wasn't quite sure what to expect when I bought these, but I was very pleasantly surpised by the quality of the music on these sets. Personally I think Rich ranks with the very best drummers, but quite apart from what you may think of him as a drummer or an individual, the music on these sets is very good to excellent.

[Brad]

I assume you've heard the Rich vs. Roach album. You don't think that as a drummer Buddy *at least* keeps up with Max on that?

If you say Ruth is one of the most significant players in the game, I'd say the comparison was spot on!

Mike

←

Mike,

I listened to this album a few years ago but don't have it any more. Anyway, what do you make of this AMG review (I know that you can't rely on them and all the various disclaimers, etc.):

The idea probably looked good on paper. Why not combine Buddy Rich's Quintet of 1959 (which consisted of altoist Phil Woods, trombonist Willie Dennis, pianist John Bunch and bassist Phil Leshin) with Max Roach's band of the time (consisting of trumpeter Tommy Turrentine, tenor saxophonist Stanley Turrentine, trombonist Julian Priester and bassist Bobby Boswell)? This CD reissues all of the music (including four "new" alternate takes) but the excess of drum solos and the relative brevity of space given to the horns results in a great deal of sameness from track to track. An unexpected bore.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I don't think it's all that bad - actually this was one of the first 7 CDs I purchased in the mid-1980s (even before I owned a CD player). I've now also got it in the Roach Mosaic set.

It's an album I enjoy for the "concept" of a meeting of two bands, and the interesting way that they handle the arrangements (rhythm sections play behind their own soloists; how the drums divide the duties and how smoothly they shift off - the fours on "The Casbah," for example). As I've said, I'm not a big Buddy Rich fan, so it's the Gryce arrangements, the soloists (including the Rich side of things, which has Phil Woods and Willie Dennis, for example) and all of the Max that do it for me. Buddy definitely spurs on Max and they really do go at it. And it's interesting to hear the difference in drumming styles. Buddy in moderation is enough for me (I can only take so much of a guy who doesn't know the meaning of the word 'moderation').

There are better and worse tracks - "Sing Sing Sing" is not so interesting (minimal chart, no solos except drums - maybe this is the only track that the AMG reviewer listened to), but "Yesterdays" is great, with probably the best Max solo on the record. And "Figure Eights" - well, my God - that's proof that Buddy Rich was one HELL of a drummer - as was Max, though this is Max on Buddy's home turf and he doesn't *quite* keep up, in my opinion. There are times when Max is pushed a bit too far and he slips. Buddy never slips.

Mike

[tranemonk]

thanks for that... but here's a more specific question....

Is there any Buddy Rich small group stuff (still in print on CD) that's out there tthat WON'T be in the Mosaic set??? (I'd like to avoid buying doubles if I do like the single cd.....)

But I am intrigued....  I wish I could get a taste or sample of this before deciding to buy....

←

You can get a sample: Buy one of these:

Blues Caravan

Buddy and Sweets

Both are easily obtained, and I'm pretty sure both will be in the set. If you like them, then buy the set. If not, then at least you haven't spent a ton of money. Personally, I like both quite a bit, at least, the parts where Buddy's not soloing.

←

[J.A.W.]

Buddy may/probably have/has as much technique as any drummer in all music history BUT I will take Blakey, Big Sid, Tough, Krupa, Blackwell, Altschul, PJJ, etc for MUSIC.

Kinda' like saying he can bench press 2000 lbs. - so friggin' what.

edit to add Greer, Jo Jones, Barbarin, Dodds, etc. 

←

[jazzbo]

Hey, I prefer Big Sid, Klook, Jo, Elveen, Tony and a dozen others to Rich as well. But tht doesn't mean he is not a significant jazz artist and leader, or that he was an "odd choice" for a Mosaic set.

Looking at the market that Mosaic carved out for themselves, it makes perfect sense for me that Mosaic is releasing this. It's a chunk of material not well reissued on compact disc in this country, with a roster of jazz greats and a clear connection between all the sessions. It will sell better, I predict, than the Kid Ory and a few other sets. If you look at it with an open mind and a sense that others' tastes may differ from one's one (especially a jazz audience that is not posting all over the internet) it's not an "odd choice."

They have to move into directions like this now I think. There is so much that has been released from the Blue Note vaults, and some items will have to be left for the parent label there to handle. This Rich set falls in line with sets from Krupa/James, Ventura/Phillips, even Eldridge and O'Day. . . . We'll see more items that the bebop and hardbop centric here may find "odd". . . but it's not a bebop and hard bop only world that Mosaic has targeted!

Edited August 6, 2005 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

Kinda' like saying he can bench press 2000 lbs. - so friggin' what.

←

So friggin' what indeed.

Except that when a list of The Strongest Men In The History Of The World is compiled, are you going to leave a cat off who can bench press 2000 lbs? I don't think so. Asteriskacise him as Most Annoying Man On The List, sure. But he makes the list.

[J.A.W.]

They have to move into directions like this now I think.  There is so much that has been released from the Blue Note vaults, and some items will have to be left for the parent label there to handle.   This Rich set falls in line with sets from Krupa/James, Ventura/Phillips, even Eldridge and O'Day. . . . We'll see more items that the bebop and hardbop centric here may find "odd". . . but it's not a bebop and hard bop only world that Mosaic has targeted!

←

Mosaic can release whatever they want, of course, and I'll pick up anything that looks good to me (finances permitting ), regardless of the kind of music. Just don't expect me to buy anything by an artist whose work I don't like, just because they're significant or renowned.

[jazzbo]

I certainly don't expect you to. Why would i? I'm in no way suggesting that.

[tranemonk]

should I assume that Rich Versus Roach will NOT be on this set? Since it's still in print and its on Mercury?

[J.A.W.]

I certainly don't expect you to.  Why would i?  I'm in no way suggesting that.

←

No, you didn't and I'm sorry if my post gave the impression that you did. It's just that criticism of certain artists' work or simply saying that one doesn't like their work hardly seems to be acceptable around here.

[jazzbo]

I wasn't viewing that as unacceptable at all. I do feel that Brad's statement that Rich was not significant or important as a jazz figure or even a good player and that it was odd that Mosaic would dedicate a set to him was just. . . wrong. Seems like he was saying that Mosaic shouldn't issue sets by anyone HE didn't like. I'll quit harping on that.

Edited August 6, 2005 by jazzbo

[jazzbo]

Tranemonk, it's hard to say for certain without a discography posted, but yes, I suspect that Rich vs. Roach will not be included in this set.

It's worth checking out. Niether Rich nor Roach are particular favorites of mine, but as Mike points out this session was very well arranged/orchestrated, and there are some great performances.