Tell me why I should get the Buddy Rich set?

[tranemonk]

Don't have anything by him. He wasn't really on my radar screen (I knew who he was) BUT.... the co-stars listed in the Mosaic set is awesome...

"....performances that paired him with 'Sweets'Edison, Benny Carter, George Auld (ts), Thad Jones, Joe Newman, Ben Webster, Frank Wess, Oscar Peterson, Sonny Criss, Jimmy Rowles, Barney Kessel, Frank Rosolino, Bob Cooper. Added to this is his live Miami album on Verve with Flip Phillips...."

I'm intrigued.... So what's the scoop you wise men.... (Do we have any active women on this board?)...?

Who's getting it? Who's not? Why?

thanks

[jazzbo]

Well, I have a number of the sessions which will be included in the box set.

For the most part, I believe they are exemplary sessions. Yes, there are some that include long drum solos and a focus on drumming. As a former drummer I may be a little more tolerant of drum solos than others, but sometimes these ARE a bit too much. However Buddy's comping the groups is wonderful, and the musicians surrounding him are topnotch; these that I have are great swinging sessions. . . .

I'll probably get the box set. Not immediately; I rarely get Mosaics immediately these days, unless it's a "vintage" (early jazz) set. But I'll get it!

[Ron S]

TM, I hope you appreciate that the man took time out on his FIFTIETH BIRTHDAY to answer your question.

[tranemonk]

WOW... I feel honored...

TM,  I hope you appreciate that the man took time out on his FIFTIETH BIRTHDAY to answer your question.

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[neveronfriday]

Buddy Rich is drumming history, no matter what one thinks about him. Consider this to be in support of the American heritage.

History.

Classic.

SWING!

Carter, Newman, Webster?

Get it!

[J.A.W.]

Buddy Rich is drumming history, no matter what one thinks about him. Consider this to be in support of the American heritage.

History.

Classic.

SWING!

Carter, Newman, Webster?

Get it!

←

Even if it's not your cup of swing? I don't think so.

[Swinging Swede]

"Added to this is his live Miami album on Verve with Flip Phillips...."

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Really?? This album was on the Ventura/Phillips Mosaic. Is this the first time something has appeared on Mosaic twice?

[jazzbo]

No. . . one Bechet session with Hodes appeared on two Mosaic sets.

[B. Goren.]

I definitely plan to order this set. My only problem is what I should order first: Buddy Rich set or the Columbia Small Group Swing Sessions. Tough life.

[desertblues]

I was also surprised to see the session from the Ventura/Phillips repeated here, but I will most likely buy this set. Even if you skip the occasional lengthy drum solos, there is some great music here (for a sample check out the "Buddy And Sweets" cd). The upcoming Chu Berry set will be a priority for me (and a likely pre-order)! It's all good...

[Christiern]

You should get he set because, besides having a way with words, Buddy was one hell of a drummer who usually chose his surroundings well.

Besides, you need something to counteract the unfortunate decision that went into your avatar!

[tranemonk]

ignoring that ignorant last comment...

Do you think the "Rich vs. Roach" album will be on the set? I assume it's almost always been in print???

[Brad]

I have to agree with Hans on this one, probably backtracking on what I said before, but of the records I've heard of his, he just dominates the session, ruining them. The liner notes for the last Diz Bird date are revealing because they talk about how Rich was a curious choice for that session since he didn't fit in at all with the rest of the musicians.

This is an odd choice for a Mosaic, in retrospect.

[tranemonk]

why do you say it's an odd choice?

I have to agree with Hans on this one, probably backtracking on what I said before, but of the records I've heard of his, he just dominates the session, ruining them.  The liner notes for the last Diz Bird date are revealing because they talk about how Rich was a curious choice for that session since he didn't fit in at all with the rest of the musicians.

This is an odd choice for a Mosaic, in retrospect.

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[jazzbo]

I don't think it's an odd choice at all, it's a fitting choice, it's a significant body of work, linked by a reknowned leader and in many cases a core of sidemen.

Now of course it doesn't fit in to the "Hans and Brad Cup of Swing Series". . .

[J.A.W.]

I don't think it's an odd choice at all, it's a fitting choice, it's a significant body of work, linked by a reknowned leader and in many cases a core of sidemen.

Now of course it doesn't fit in to the "Hans and Brad Cup of Swing Series". . . 

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Well, renowned or not, I don't like his work at all, and I'm not buying any artist's work just because it's significant.

[jazzbo]

I'm not questioning that judgment at all. (Just having a little fun). BUT I don't at all think it is in Brad's words "an odd choice." It's not an odd choice at all in my opinion. Siginificant portions of this material have hardly been on cd. The man was an excellent drummer (a better drummer in my opinion than many, including Blakey). It will sell well enough I predict, better than the Kid Ory and perhaps even better than the J. J. sets.

It's no more an odd choice to my view than the Roy Eldridge set or the Moncur Select. I really don't like the music in the Moncur Select, but I don't think it was an odd choice for a Select.

Edited August 5, 2005 by jazzbo

[Ron S]

Now of course it doesn't fit in to the "Hans and Brad Cup of Swing Series". . . 

Why haven't I seen this for sale on Ebay yet?

[Brad]

I think it's an odd choice because I don't think he's all that significant and I don't think he's all that good a drummer. Better than Blakey? I don't believe that deserves a reply. While Lon's post may be tongue in cheek, people who get the Mosaic treatment are usually pretty significant in their field. While the sidemen are, I don't think he is. The Rich Edison cd that came out on LPR not that long ago is a case in point. He overdominated the record and ruined it for me. Now, if this is emblematic of the whole set, no thank you.

BTW, I hear the Hans and Brad Cup of Swing series is coming out in mini lp in Japan

[jazzbo]

I wasn't kidding regarding Blakey---I think techincally Rich is a better drummer than Blakey. (I happen to have been a drummer, maybe I listen for different things). You don't like his playing as well, but Rich is quite significant in the jazz world and I'll just disagree that this is an "odd choice."

Blakey dominates a number of Messengers sessions too!

[J.A.W.]

BTW, I hear the Hans and Brad Cup of Swing series is coming out in mini lp in Japan

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Yep, and the remastering is great - no noise reduction, no maximized sound levels/compression, and no funny EQ-ing!

[J.A.W.]

I think it's an odd choice because I don't think he's all that significant and I don't think he's all that good a drummer.  Better than Blakey?  I don't believe that deserves a reply.  While Lon's post may be tongue in cheek, people who get the Mosaic treatment are usually pretty significant in their field.  While the sidemen are, I don't think he is.

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I fully agree with Brad's assessment.

[jazzbo]

Well, you're both entitled to your opinion!

To say that Rich is not a significant jazz player and not a good player is something I couldn't say myself. I don't think that's an accurate assessment.

Edited August 5, 2005 by jazzbo

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Wow - Buddy Rich isn't that good a drummer?

Babe Ruth wasn't that good a ball player.

Buddy ain't my favorite, based on stylistic decisions (his and mine), but yeah, he is that good a drummer.

Blakey was not a technician. He is probably my favorite drummer, but he didn't have the chops of Buddy. Which shows that chops ain't everything for everyone.

Mike

[JSngry]

I think techincally Rich is a better drummer than Blakey.

Technically, Buddy was better than anybody. And everybody knew it (and freely admitted it). How could they not? You play an istrument, really play it, and you know who's got command and who doesn't. And Buddy Rich had more command of his instrument than anybody. Any and all disagreements about his musicality must acknowledge that if they are to be valid. At least they do in my opinion.

Now, when it comes to things like "tastefulness" and such, there's plenty of room for disagreement. Buddy Rich is in no way at the top, near the top, or even on my list of "favorite" drummers. But having said that, I'll also say that I have heard things where his playing is both intense and tasteful, and those are the moments when you realize just what a staggering talent he really was, or could be. The Groove Merchant side he cut w/Lionel Hampton has some of those moments - listening to Rich behind Hampton is at times not at all dissimilar to listening to Tony behind Miles. I kid you not. And, I've heard him play brushes extremely tastefully. A blanket dismissal of him as "all chops all the time" is fallacious in specificity, even if it tends to be true overall.

The thing I respect the hell out of about Rich is that he wasn't a "showboat", odd as that may sound. A maniac, yes, and definitely a freak, but very, very seldom do you hear him playing fireworks just for the sake of cheap effect. He was a driven soul, and his playing reflected that. "Intensity" is what always comes through, even in his quiter moments, but it is an intensity which has no choice but to be there. Anything else would be dishonest, and for all his faults, Buddy Rich was never dishonest in his music.

Yawl can rag on the guy all you want. A lot of it is deserved. But don't ever ever think that there has been (or, probably, ever will be) a more commanding practitioner of the craft of trap set drumming than Buddy Rich. As an "artist", he often leaves much to be desired, at least for what I (and many of us here) like. But when it comes to playing the instrument as virtuostically as it could be played, there's Rich, and then there's everybody else. Period. I respect the hell out of that, every bit as deeply I remain generally indifferent to the results.