Early Monk tributes

[JSngry]

Why?

[bertrand]

I think it would work in a trio setting - no piano.

Bertrand.

[Kalo]

Why?

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I guess because Shorter strikes me as more elliptical and airy than Monk, who was so direct and, I want to say, firmly planted, albeit in his idiosyncratic, eccentric way. Shorter strikes me as more ethereal and spacy, especially now, while Monk, as far out as he could go, has the solid, earthy, homely funkiness and rootedness of a hand-assembled stone fence.

Edited July 29, 2005 by Kalo

[Kalo]

I think it would work in a trio setting - no piano.

Bertrand.

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And don't get me wrong: I'd love to hear it, especially as Bertrand suggests.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

If Wayne is such a big Monk fan and he's got Danilo Perez, a well-known Monk fan (PanaMonk; duos with Steve Lacy), and John Patitucci, instructor at the Thelonious Monk Institute, in his band - odd that nothing has come of this.

Mike

[Kalo]

Good Point, Mike.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

But then again, as Bertrand well knows, Shorter is big at the Monk Institute as well.

Mike

[Rosco]

I guess because Shorter strikes me as more elliptical and airy than Monk, who was so direct and, I want to say, firmly planted, albeit in his idiosyncratic, eccentric way. Shorter strikes me as more ethereal and spacy, especially now, while Monk, as far out as he could go, has the solid, earthy, homely funkiness and rootedness of a hand-assembled stone fence.

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Maybe these days, but in 1959 it might have worked. Early Wayne had a sort of gritty funkiness to it (although, as with Monk, very much more idiosyncratic and cerebral than those terms suggest). Think of his playing with Blakey and it doesn't become such a stretch. After the mid 60s Wayne found his own thing and maybe it wouldn't have worked so well after that.

I've always thought that Shorter's compositions were influenced by Monk in their juxtaposition of unconventional harmony and structure with resolutely logical musicality.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Why?

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I guess because Shorter strikes me as more elliptical and airy than Monk, who was so direct and, I want to say, firmly planted, albeit in his idiosyncratic, eccentric way. Shorter strikes me as more ethereal and spacy, especially now, while Monk, as far out as he could go, has the solid, earthy, homely funkiness and rootedness of a hand-assembled stone fence.

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I was thinking along these lines as well. I agree with Rosco that Shorter back in 1959 might have been a better bet, but even then...

I don't really hear how Shorter playing Monk would be different (say) to 'Shorter plays Gershwin', 'plays Berlin', 'plays Arlen', or whatever 'songbook'-type album...I think that playing Monk takes some type of affinity, and I think of Shorter as far too conventional a player. I don't know whether he has the right rhythmic sense, humour, or melodic method.

Obviously, it's not to say he doesn't have some of these qualities - just not, to my ears, in a way cognate to Monk...

I think great Monk interpreters are freed by the structure of his songs, whereas, because of their idiosyncrasy, those who don't have the affinity are radically constricted by them.

[Alexander Hawkins]

In a similar way - and this'll either bring home my point or show my ignorance - I wouldn't want Herbie Hancock anywhere near a Monk album.

[JSngry]

Yet, Chick Corea has performed both splendid and silly renditions of Monk Material. So, you just never know...

I think Wayne could do great with Monk if he felt so inclined (and that is the key factor...). Whether or not he played Monk in a way that "sounded like Monk" - especially considering where he's at today - is another matter entirely. But is Monk's music a music that demands that it be played in a certain stylistic manner? I think not, and I submit as evidence (no pun intended...) the Steve Duke/Joseph Pinzarrone duet album as proof that Monk's music has a lot to offer musicians and listeners alike who want to/are able to "think outside the box" in terms of what the music is, what the implications are, and how it "should" sound. These guys approach the music like it's not jazz, but more like it's 20th Century "classical" music, and the results are quite satisfactory to my ears. They still retain the essence of Monk, albeit more in the end result rather than from the raw ingredients.

For that matter, Steve Lacy's later interpretations of Monk's music go in a direction that shows the fundamental influence without really drawing on the "style". I'd think that Wayne could do the same thing, only differently. If what we're looking for is Monk Music, that is to say, performances of Monk compositions that more or less sound like its him playing them with his group, then we're selling the music way short, and are doing so for both players and listeners alike.

[Rosco]

I think that playing Monk takes some type of affinity, and I think of Shorter as far too conventional a player . I don't know whether he has the right rhythmic sense, humour, or melodic method.

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You do?!!

I always thought Shorter was most unconventional... Even in the early days his take on (post-)bop seemed quite different to anyone else's. All in the ear of the behearer, obviously...

[Rosco]

I submit as evidence (no pun intended...) the Steve Duke/Joseph Pinzarrone duet album as proof that Monk's music has a lot to offer musicians and listeners alike who want to/are able to "think outside the box" in terms of what the music is, what the implications are, and how it "should" sound. These guys approach the music like it's not jazz, but more like it's 20th Century "classical" music, and the results are quite satisfactory to my ears. They still retain the essence of Monk, albeit more in the end result rather than from the raw ingredients.

For that matter, Steve Lacy's later interpretations of Monk's music go in a direction that shows the fundamental influence without really drawing on the "style".

I'd think that Wayne could do the same thing, only differently. If what we're looking for is Monk Music, that is to say, performances of Monk compositions that more or less sound like its him playing them with his group, then we're selling the music way short, and are doing so for both players and listeners alike.

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As further evidence, I'll mention an early album by Sweden's Esbjorn Svensson Trio- EST Plays Monk (ACT). Monk purists would probably hate it, but the trio take the compositions and make them sound absolutely un-Monkian; there's a touch of funk, a hint of Euro icyness, some Jarretteque angularity. It's all the more refreshing for taking the source material somewhere else entirely.

There's a lot of meat in these tunes and plenty of directions to go in. Monk's music is often perceived as 'difficult' and it's a pity more players aren't tempted to take up the challenge.

[Alexander Hawkins]

For that matter, Steve Lacy's later interpretations of Monk's music go in a direction that shows the fundamental influence without really drawing on the "style". I'd think that Wayne could do the same thing, only differently. If what we're looking for is Monk Music, that is to say, performances of Monk compositions that more or less sound like its him playing them with his group, then we're selling the music way short, and are doing so for both players and listeners alike.

Oh, sure - I certainly agree about the fundamental influence thing rather than drawing on the style. I think people trying to sound like Monk is ALL wrong! I certainly wouldn't want to hear people do that. Shorter couldn't do it, he'd be right not to try, and why would we want him to?!?

What I was querying was whether Wayne has that fundamental influence...I mean, Rollins, for example, clearly does (likewise e.g. Bud Powell, Lacy, etc), but I just don't know about Wayne...

I'll look out for those Steve Duke/Joseph Pinzarrone duets, for sure!

[couw]

For an interesting (and rather early) take on Monk's music, I'd recommend the André Hodeir arrangements as played by the Jazz Groupe de Paris and by Kenny Clarke's Sextet, released in the JiParis series. Hodeir does some nice things in a Evans/Mulligan/Cool vein with that typical deep coloured and interweaving stuff with different instruments alternating in one or a series of melodic lines. Much like the jerky piano style of Monk himself really. The Clarke Sextet features Solal who has an own mind when it comes to approaching the piano. The Monk tunes are in the minority, but these disks should be checked out.

[Kalo]

For an interesting (and rather early) take on Monk's music, I'd recommend the André Hodeir arrangements as played by the Jazz Groupe de Paris and by Kenny Clarke's Sextet, released in the JiParis series. Hodeir does some nice things in a Evans/Mulligan/Cool vein with that typical deep coloured and interweaving stuff with different instruments alternating in one or a series of melodic lines. Much like the jerky piano style of Monk himself really. The Clarke Sextet features Solal who has an own mind when it comes to approaching the piano. The Monk tunes are in the minority, but these disks should be checked out.

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I agree that those are interesting records. I'll pull them out again for another listen.

Anybody have opinions about the fairly recent Bill Holman big band Monk tribute?

[clifford_thornton]

On the subject of Wayne and Monk, what about Grachan's tune "Monk In Wonderland?" Yeah, I know Wayne isn't on the date, but the bridge sounds very much like a Wayne-ing moment, if you get what I'm saying. Not to mention the ethereality of Grachan, but I think it would work as an interesting concept. If you had Wayne, Grachan, Hill, Cranshaw and Chambers doing an album of Monk tunes in '64, you would be a happy camper, wouldn't you? I know I would.

[Guy Berger]

I always thought Shorter was most unconventional... Even in the early days his take on (post-)bop seemed quite different to anyone else's. All in the ear of the behearer, obviously...

Ear of the behearer for sure..! I just hear his sound as pretty mainstream...However much he played around with harmony, however adventurous from that point of view, it just sounds a bit safe to me...

Less so in his earlier stuff, for sure - e.g. Gee Baby... from the Messengers album on Impulse.

Hmm, I don't know...maybe I should have another concerted go at Shorter - I guess the thing is, the less keen you are on someone's playing, the less time you spend with it, and the less likely you are to 'get' it...Oh well!

I'm with Rosco on this -- I find your comment to be a real head-scratcher. And if anything, I think Wayne became less conventional as the 60s wore on.

Sorry about hijacking the thread!

Guy

Edited July 31, 2005 by Guy