LEAST FAVORITE DRUMMERS

[Chuck Nessa]

But I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really don't like the way Butch Miles plays.

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I don't like his teeth.

[JSngry]

He got the Buddy Rich teeth.

[Dennis_M]

I think the most overrated drummer of all time is Gene Krupa. His work on Sing, Sing, Sing is IMO pitiful. Chick Webb was in an entirely different league.

As to Buddy Rich, he seems to be on the "it's ok to hate him" list, but I have to say he was one of the finest big band drummers ever. He could drive a big band like few others. I wouldn't pick him for small groups, I would go for Shelly Manne or Stan Levey, but there were(are) lots of great small group drummers.

[Guest youmustbe]

Like him or not, Krupa was the man that made 'the drummer' a hot showbiz item. And a wonderful guy.

It's a long time ago, but Gene was GREAT!!! And Buddy too. Buddy hated to rehearse. He would hire someone to do the rehearsals. He had an uncanny ear. Hard to believe, but everybody back in the day loved playing with him. The entire Basie Band would rather play with him than Sonny Payne. They would be on the same bill at Birdland and Buddy would sit in. He nailed everything without even knowing the charts!

Sonny Payne looked a little like Miles. Had a lot of white chicks around him.

A bad ass drummer was Frankie Dunlop. Frankie also could imitate voices, anybody. Would break guys up with his voice imitations.

First time I heard Sonny Rollins was at Birdland with Henry Grimes and Charles Moffett. A swinging drumer was Charles. Used to sit next to him at the Vanguard when he played with Ornette. The way he got the gig was Sonny was doing some benefit at the Village Gate. Edgar Bateman had the gig. But Sonny asked Edgar to let Charles sit in on one tune. After the tune Edgar went to take his place and Charles hissed at him while behind the kit, 'If I get up, I'll kill you!'. Edgar backed off and Charles did the rest of the set. Sonny thought Edgar didn't want it, so he took Charles to Birdland.

[Free For All]

The entire Basie Band would rather play with him than Sonny Payne.

Interesting. How do you know that?

[Dave James]

I have no problem with those who dislike Buddy Rich, although I sometimes wonder if an active dislike of him as a person may compromise one's ability to objectively assess his skills as a musician. Under no circumstances, however, can his technical expertise or his ability to swing be challenged. I've never heard anyone who could rattle a set of skins like Rich. IMO, in a league all his own. Sure he could be a dickhead (can't we all?) and he had an ego as big or bigger than all outdoors, but, be that as it may, I'm sorry, this guy could fuckin' A play.

Up over and out.

[clifford_thornton]

Hey, Blakey isn't my favorite either - but I think it actually has to do with how repetitive the '60s Messengers records are IMO, not his playing. Put him with Herbie Nichols and it's like Cecil and Denis.

Nor is DeJohnette, though his playing never made me 'not' buy something.

I'm a big Han fan but I can see why his shtick annoys a lot of people. Still, his playing in the late '60s is less about that, and you can see what an excellent, hard-swinging and still very wiley drummer he could be. Those mid/late '60s Misha Quartet records give a good example, as does the New Acoustic Swing Duo and Marion Brown's Porto Novo, any of the early ICP records, etc.

[marcello]

Buddy on Basie:

"Now, Basie is something else. When you talk about Basie, you're talking about the most loveable, warmest, nicest man in all of my years in the music business. There's nothing I wouldn't do for him. If he called me today and said : "I need you, for this important date," I'd be there. Because I've done it before for him. It's not a big deal; it’s just what this man has represented to me in music all his life. He's a guy with impeccable taste."

Basie on Buddy:

Dance: Any era when the music is swinging, even today.

Basie: Well, there's Buddy...Buddy Rich. He has a lot of swing tunes in the book. And when they turn around and play them, then he has a great swing band.

Dance: Is that mostly due to Buddy himself?

Basie: As long as the band is swinging, that's it!

And here is a example of a Buddy small unit on tour:

Edited July 20, 2005 by marcello

[randissimo]

How about Carl Allan??

Saw him live about two years ago here in KC, with a high-power pickup-group that included Bobby Watson and Cedar Walton (if I remember correctly), and a relatively big-name trumpeter (can't remember who, though). Maybe Allan was having an off night, but I can think of half a dozen local drummers that could have easily given him a run for his money.

I'm not saying he's the worst drummer I've ever heard, but he certainly didn't live up to my expectations that night.

Don't judge Carl Allen on the basis of THAT horrible night. Despite the best efforts of Cedar and Bobby, that band couldn't have cohered. No rehearsal, and a coked-up trumpet player, whose name I won't mention in a public forum. Plus a clueless pickup bass player and an even more clueless pickup vocalist. It hurts to think about that night.

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Word... I heard Carl back in the late 80's with Freddy Hubbard in SF, at the Milestone.. He played his ass off that night! I was blown away!

[king ubu]

The entire Basie Band would rather play with him than Sonny Payne.

Interesting. How do you know that?

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They'd rather have preferred keeping Gus Johnson (a real mo-fo!), as far as I understand.

Mike: check out the recent Billy Cobham trio disc with Ron Carter and Kenny Barron - there was a thread about it here.

A great disc, and a real ear-opener for me, since I always thought Cobham sucked, then picked this one up after having read a very positive review by Switzerland's one competent jazz critic (probably the only one who has so far *not* written about Lonehill/Definitive/etc. releases and instead knew about the original releases...)

And put me in the book as one who likes Louis Hayes a lot (he was so young in the fifties when he was all over the place, and had so much taste already!) and also Ben Riley!

But then again, there are days when I can't stand Roy Haynes, or Philly Joe, or Blakey... but that does not mean I don't like them. Max can bug the shit out of me, too, when I'm not in the right mood.

Plus I find it a bit difficult to see Han Bennink listed here... I mean we're otherwise not talking about any but bop and fusion drummers, so... or does everybody love Sunny Murray and Denis Charles and Andrew Cyrille and Mel Graves and ...

Oh, should we now start bashing Hamid? Since this is the drummer thread, why not repeat my opinion that he is way overrated. I think he is good, but he is not nearly as good as he is thought to be by many...

[Chrome]

Hey, Blakey isn't my favorite either - but I think it actually has to do with how repetitive the '60s Messengers records are IMO, not his playing. Put him with Herbie Nichols and it's like Cecil and Denis.

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Maybe it's a chicken/egg kind of thing, but couldn't it be that it's Blakey's playing that adds to the "repetitiveness" of the Messengers sound? I'm also a huge Blakey fan, first got into jazz when I heard "Moanin,'" but I also can only take so much of his classic Blue Note stuff at one time.

Of course, maybe he was kind of typecast at the time and just didn't have the status or whatever to record the way he wanted ... he certainly seemed to loosen up later.

I guess, in the end, I think Blakey's non-drumming jazz activities (his work with younger players, his "jazz ambassador status," etc.) really helped his reputation ... or at least I'll float the possibility.

Edited July 20, 2005 by Chrome

[king ubu]

Billy Hart is a drummer I often find a bit difficult. I can see that he has a style that is completely his own, but... I've seen him live with Bobo Stenson and Charles Lloyd, and wasn't always sure. Same goes on discs. Sometimes I just think he's great, other times I can't grasp what he's up to.

Oh, and I agree on Denardo...

[clifford_thornton]

[Plus I find it a bit difficult to see Han Bennink listed here... I mean we're otherwise not talking about any but bop and fusion drummers, so... or does everybody love Sunny Murray and Denis Charles and Andrew Cyrille and Mel Graves and ...

Oh, should we now start bashing Hamid? Since this is the drummer thread, why not repeat my opinion that he is way overrated. I think he is good, but he is not nearly as good as he is thought to be by many...

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As for Han, I was following somebody else's post. But he does find himself in other contexts than 'free,' that is for sure. Early Mengelberg 'Kwartet' is not free jazz, though definitely vanguard in its approach. I would call Dolphy post-bop though his influence ranges far from that tree, so Han's work with Eric would fall into this category as well.

Hamid is weak.

[king ubu]

[Plus I find it a bit difficult to see Han Bennink listed here... I mean we're otherwise not talking about any but bop and fusion drummers, so... or does everybody love Sunny Murray and Denis Charles and Andrew Cyrille and Mel Graves and ...

Oh, should we now start bashing Hamid? Since this is the drummer thread, why not repeat my opinion that he is way overrated. I think he is good, but he is not nearly as good as he is thought to be by many...

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As for Han, I was following somebody else's post. But he does find himself in other contexts than 'free,' that is for sure. Early Mengelberg 'Kwartet' is not free jazz, though definitely vanguard in its approach. I would call Dolphy post-bop though his influence ranges far from that tree, so Han's work with Eric would fall into this category as well.

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That is true, yes. Hadn't thought about that.

[king ubu]

Billy Hart is a drummer I often find a bit difficult. I can see that he has a style that is completely his own, but... I've seen him live with Bobo Stenson and Charles Lloyd, and wasn't always sure. Same goes on discs. Sometimes I just think he's great, other times I can't grasp what he's up to.

Oh, and I agree on Denardo...

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Funny enough just this morning I picked up the recent AotW, "Great Friends" by Hart, Workman, Cowell, Harper & Fortune, and I totally dig it right now (popped it in just after I posted the above...)

[clifford_thornton]

han bennink gives me a headache with his light chattering style sometimes.

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Boy, I'd hate to see your reaction to Sunny Murray!

[randissimo]

The other drummer I can't take for more than 4 bars is Max Weinberg..

A few days before my mom passed away, I was at the hospital sitting next to her bed watching tv with her, just minding my own business, and she says, "Randy,, have you seen that drummer on Conan O'Brien? ... Does he suck !! " ...

Edited July 20, 2005 by randissimo

[CJ Shearn]

I saw Carl Allen a few months ago, it was great! Very nice guy too. Closest thing to having a Blakey experience for me.

[Guest akanalog]

han bennink gives me a headache with his light chattering style sometimes.

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Boy, I'd hate to see your reaction to Sunny Murray!

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no like sunny murray. i find him more "swooshy" and bennink more "chattery", which is what is annoying. also bennink seems "gimmicky" which makes me lose respect for him wheras murray seems sort of melodic.

[clinthopson]

I'm looking forward to hanging out with Butch at the West Coast Jazz Party where he'sa regular. As I said, a very nice guy and a competent drummer. Jeff Hamilton (IMHO the top drummer today) and Joe LaBarbera are usually also on the bill. Of course, Butch suffers in comparison with those monsters.

Joe isn't there this year, I'll miss hanging with him and talking about a certain thumper from Upper NY state.

I stick by my comments on DeJohnette, I've heard quite a lot of him and he just doesn't do it for me.

Zutty SIngleton is IMHO the most overrated of the two-beaters.

[randissimo]

I stick by my comments on DeJohnette,  I've heard quite a lot of him and he just doesn't do it for me.

Different strokes for different folks I on the other hand, love Jack D's playing and have enjoyed him on many occasions. He has been a great source of ideas & inspiration for me personally.. Based on the tracks I've heard, Butch Miles just doesn't connect with me, especially the trio and small ensemble tracks I've heard.. And on the subject of big bands, though there are some really great jazz big bands out there like Phil Kelly's band, the Mingus Dynasty, and Dave Holland's big band, I've never honestly been that into the big band music scene & drummers and that's probably because I have just never really been that interested in playing in big bands. I've always by choice played in smaller ensembles and will typically turn down the calls for big band gigs.

OK truthfully, I confess I am not a good sight reader and when I have done big band gigs, I usually ended up stressed out, with my face buried in the charts trying to count my way through the arrangements, at the same time, trying to push and pull along the often dragging horn sections..

Edited July 20, 2005 by randissimo

[Guest akanalog]

i have never heard of butch miles before.

i find that it sounds like jack D is trying to fill up all available space sometimes, but i think he chilled out over time. and sometimes this approach works well-like on the sparer ECM stuff. there is no doubting his skill, but i think his style on many pieces is an acquired taste.

also someone mentioned carter beauford or whatever. i don't listen to that cheesy crap, but my dad does and i have had to go see that band a few times with girls in the 90s and beauford is a great drummer. i was very impressed.

[Guest akanalog]

speaking of mike portnoy, remember that story a few years ago about someone impersonating him? what a random person to impersonate.

http://archive.unearthed.com/?news,2003,04,0000016253

and from some other site-i remember there was a gay aspect to this story...

A man who impersonated Dream Theater drummer Mike Portnoy has been arrested in New York, the band’s web site claims. Not only did the unnamed man steal Portnoy’s identity using an uncanny knowledge of his band, his drum beats and his business contacts, but he also stole from people once he gained their confidence. One post on the band’s site claims that the faux Portnoy would hang out in bars and tell men he was “questioning his sexuality” and uncovering memories of childhood sexual abuse. He would then go somewhere and “get it on” with his victims – then steal their wallets and whatever else he could grab, including house keys.

The real Portnoy is happily married, doesn’t drink, and works hard on producing ponderous two-CD sets of arty Pantera-inspired rock for the band, according to the official site. It’s interesting to see the different forms identity theft can take – the imposter didn’t know Portnoy’s social security number or bank account number, but he still managed to do plenty of damage. And he showed just how slippery identity is these days – how many people in New York now believe Portnoy is a gay kleptomaniac?

[randissimo]

speaking of mike portnoy, remember that story a few years ago about someone impersonating him?  what a random person to impersonate.

http://archive.unearthed.com/?news,2003,04,0000016253

and from some other site-i remember there was a gay aspect to this story...

A man who impersonated Dream Theater drummer Mike Portnoy has been arrested in New York, the band’s web site claims. Not only did the unnamed man steal Portnoy’s identity using an uncanny knowledge of his band, his drum beats and his business contacts, but he also stole from people once he gained their confidence. One post on the band’s site claims that the faux Portnoy would hang out in bars and tell men he was “questioning his sexuality” and uncovering memories of childhood sexual abuse. He would then go somewhere and “get it on” with his victims – then steal their wallets and whatever else he could grab, including house keys.

The real Portnoy is happily married, doesn’t drink, and works hard on producing ponderous two-CD sets of arty Pantera-inspired rock for the band, according to the official site. It’s interesting to see the different forms identity theft can take – the imposter didn’t know Portnoy’s social security number or bank account number, but he still managed to do plenty of damage. And he showed just how slippery identity is these days – how many people in New York now believe Portnoy is a gay kleptomaniac?

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WOW! What a story !! That's crazy!

[marcello]

Joe isn't there this year, I'll miss hanging with him and talking about a certain thumper from Upper NY state.

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Vinnie Ruggierio?