Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier

[MomsMobley]

avoid Edwin Fischer, which is a dog. If you're gonna put THAT much effort into figuring out what the hell he's trying to do, might as play the damn pieces yourself. Avoid Tureck like live hand grenade, she's that deadly.

Most piano versions are lame so you're right to look HIP; do you still like Angela Hewitt? At best I'd say she's non-offensive or blandly decent. One piano version I'd check out besides the essential (as points of reference) Samuel Feinberg and Gould recordings is Zhu Xiao-Mei on Mirare--

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Well-Tempered-Clavier/dp/B0038ZGLJI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgPnkZMs72I

Gulda is pretty good too; LOTS of otherwise excellent interesting pianists crap out on WTC (Richter, Afannassiev, Koroliov, the list goes on), alas. Roger Woodward is pretty good, could be better.

Fake harpsichord: Landowska is still pretty good, better than any old piano version and the absurdly overpraised Casals Bach, for example, though I'd say Wanda was best in the partitas and Italian concerto.

Organ/clavecin/clavichord: Robert Levin did a terrific set for Hanssler but it swaps instruments so often it won't work for most people. A fine idea well-realized but not the most FUNCTIONAL for home use.

Harpsichord: Christine Schornsheim is a great bargain (RUN for her Haydn box too btw); Pierre Hantai as Mike suggested; Davitt Moroney; Ralph Kirkpatrick on clavichord;

http://www.amazon.com/Well-Tempered-Clavier-Bach/dp/B0064DLG32

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yekDaeytKaY

Avoid the disappointing Egarr, burn/bury/drown Leonhardt. Blandine Verlet is pretty good.

Any recommendations of more recent CD releases, especially HIP ones?

[king ubu]

I very much enjoy Gulda!

Has Hantaï only recorded book 1 so far?

[J.A.W.]

Has Hantaï only recorded book 1 so far?

I think so, that's the only Hantaï WTC recording I could find.

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Thanks Moms. No, I ditched the Hewitt WTC, no more piano versions for me.

Edited August 5, 2012 by J.A.W.

[Д.Д.]

The only version of WTC that I've heard so far and found interesting is very idiosyncratic Olli Mustonen (on piano) where Bach's WTC Book 1 is interspersed with Shostakovich's Preludes & Fugues Op. 87. There are two 2-CD sets, one on RCA (now OOP), one on Ondine.

Amazon has samples.

Ondine set: http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Shostakovich-Preludes-Fugues-Vol/dp/B00012SZFO/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1344165818&sr=1-2&keywords=mustonen+bach

RCA set: http://www.amazon.de/Pr%C3%A4ludien-Fugen-von-Bach-Schostakowitsch/dp/B000023ZR4/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1344165907&sr=1-2

[J.A.W.]

I've clearly waited too long with my interest in baroque solo works: some of the recommendations are OOP, very hard to find and ridiculously expensive, like for instance Book II of Blandine Verlet's Well-Tempered Clavier. If anybody knows where to get a relatively cheap copy (CD only), you know where to find me

Edited August 5, 2012 by J.A.W.

[MomsMobley]

I'm a big Mustonen fan but I have to admit I'd rather hear Bach or DSCH, not both jumbled together... But really, eff the piano in baroque and earlier repertoire. While it was once a necessary filter for our historical ignorance and/or an alternative to the days of lesser harpsichordists and harpsichords, the level of musician and instruments in the last 15 years or so has become tremendous.

Keith Jarrett's Bach is horrendous, even worse than his insufferable jazz playing. (My biggest criticism of Jarrett's vocalization is that it ISN'T LOUD ENOUGH to drown out the bullshit from comes out his fingers.)

Hans, on further thought I'd definitely get Schornsheim and give this a listen too Peter Watchorn on pedal harpsichord--

http://peterwatchorn.com/

Larry Kart if you see this NO the Rannous Goldberg really is awesome but she's her own woman for sure; it wouldn't be bonkers to compare her to a HIP Mengelberg/Furtwangler in fact.

re: Rousset in Forqueray, ornamentation and improvisation can be contentious; I've studied the subject enough to believe there was always a variety/range of accepted styles depending on x # of factors-- musician, instrument, day of week, audience expectation etc.

all of Leonhardt's ponderous and insufferable recordings didn't do the cause of harpsichord genius any good either, save 1) dedication and 2) counter-example.

Like Boney Moroney!!

[king ubu]

Keith Jarrett's Bach is horrendous, even worse than his insufferable jazz playing. (My biggest criticism of Jarrett's vocalization is that it ISN'T LOUD ENOUGH to drown out the bullshit from comes out his fingers.)

Now, sometimes - only sometimes - I wish there was someone loud enough to drown out the bulls hit that comes from your fingers!

[Д.Д.]

I'm a big Mustonen fan but I have to admit I'd rather hear Bach or DSCH, not both jumbled together...

It actually often works surprisingly well. Give it a try, of you have not heard them.

[Larry Kart]

Moms -- I agree with this reviewer:

http://kemer.blogspot.com/2008/04/fistfull-of-forqueray.html

on the differences between Rannou and Rousset in Forqueray. Having heard Rannou, I would say that perhaps Rousset just doesn't like this music, which is admittedly rather odd, particularly in its very low tessitura, and might even be taken for ugly until one hears someone like Rannou play it. Couperin or Rameau it ain't.

[J.A.W.]

This is a great set:

Amazon

Amazon U.K.

Amazon Germany

Amazon France

Edited August 14, 2012 by J.A.W.

[Д.Д.]

This is a great set:

Amazon

Amazon U.K.

Amazon Germany

Amazon France

Samples do sound good, will probably get it eventually.

[J.A.W.]

The Schornsheim WTC is one of MomsMobley's recommendations I totally agree with.

Edited August 14, 2012 by J.A.W.

[king ubu]

bit cheaper on amazon.it

[king ubu]

quick off-topic question:

Christine Schornsheim ... (RUN for her Haydn box too btw)

what would she actually play on that Haydn box? 't says "period instruments", but ignunt me doesn't know what that means with respect to Haydn, sorry.

[J.A.W.]

quick off-topic question:

Christine Schornsheim ... (RUN for her Haydn box too btw)

what would she actually play on that Haydn box? 't says "period instruments", but ignunt me doesn't know what that means with respect to Haydn, sorry.

Auf Deutsch: Cembalo, Clavichord, Hammerklavier und Orgel. She plays all these instruments on her various CDs, but she doesn't play the organ on the box with the complete piano sonatas. That box is excellent if you want to have all of Haydn's keyboard sonatas, but to my ear only the later, mature works are interesting.

Edited August 24, 2012 by J.A.W.

[king ubu]

Yeah, I've heard that before (got Gould's last six - very good ... they'd be on a hammerklavier if performed by HIP-sters, I assume?). Will have to give this some thought, but I'll get her well-tempered cembalo, I think.

(can a cembalo actually be well-tempered?)

[mikeweil]

(can a cembalo actually be well-tempered?)

In the 18th century well-tempered was not what it is today. There is a lot of discussion abaout what Bach's tuning systrem really was - e.g. look at Bradley Lehman's website. Bach's student Kirnberger documented some systems of tuning, Andreas Werckmeister, and dozens of others. It definitely was not equal temperament in the mathematical modern sense - this was introduced only after 1900, and in vayring degrees. We now know that e.g. for organs in Bach's time mean-tone temperament was still the standard - even for Handel in London - this is much closer to the natural scale of brass instruments, and makes intonation easier in the Water Musick etc. (listen to Hervé Niquet's stunning recording for a taste of it). With well-tempered Bach meant his own system of tuning in a way that all keys were playable but still had individual characteristics due to varying degrees of deviation from pure intervals.

One of the best examples for the dimensions these tunings open is Johann Kuhnau's Biblical Sonatas, where he uses remote keys that sound detuned in 18th century tunings as an expressive device to describe emotional states, especially in the sonata that tells the story of King Saul consoled by David's harmonious harp playing.

In modern tunings, btw, only octaves are pure - all other intervals are out of tune - but average listeners never notice because it is omnipresent. With jazz it works, as this music was conceived with these tunings - but for 18th and 19th century music pianos should be tuned differently. Funny enough, we know that e.g. Schumann had his piano tuned every other week, but we do not know how - only that it was not modern equal temperament.

An 18th century model harpsichord needs 18th century tuning - everything else sounds awful, as the many high frequency overtones of plucked stings will not mesh well. That's why all harpsichordists tune their instruments themselves.

Edited August 24, 2012 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

Robert Levin's rendition is interesting, too, especially the second part, where he uses various keyboard instruments that suit different characteristics. A piano playing friend of mine always thought that some pieces sounded more logical on organ, and was delighted when I pointed out to him that Levin took the same choices.

There are cheap copies on amazon.

Edited August 24, 2012 by mikeweil

[king ubu]

Many thanks for that history lessen Mike - most interesting!