Bluebird / RCA Gold Series...

[king ubu]

I gather there are several series of RCA reissues, the most recent ones the French RCA Gold Series (listed, for instance, on the Freshshound website), and the US Bluebird Jazz releases.

The US ones look like this:

The French reissue of this same album:

And to make things even more confusing, there is yet another US reissue:

My question: I picked up the French edition of this album a few years ago, and just today got the Bluebird reissue, since the French does not have the alternates/additional tracks.

Now can anyone tell me about the quality of the remasterings? I am no audiophile, and I do realise that preferences depend heavily upon personal taste and hifi-set (again I don't have such nifty stuff). Still I want to ask: is there a general consensus that one of these series is the best?

And can someone shed some light as to why some of the French releases do not have alternate takes, while others do? The French releases state that they were done from the master tapes, so I wonder...

[jazzbo]

Well. . . I don't know too much. Let me share what I have been able to learn in comparisons with just a few items.

I personally feel the top most pictured, the most recent of US releases, is likely the best sounding and most complete. This has been true when I have been able to make comparisons, such as between the US and French releases of the RCA Mingus title and two titles by Gato Barbieri. The Mingus US release had more material, more liner notes, and "better" sound than the French release. Contentwise the Barbieri material was the same, but the US version had two titles on one, and was "better" sounding.

"Better" sounding is subjective. . . . Some may prefer the one to the other. I felt that the US versions were perhaps a bit more "full" sounding and less bright.

[J.A.W.]

The U.S. Bluebird version is by far the best, it smokes all others, including the pumped-up Japanese 24-bit remaster. The reissues in the Bluebird "First Editions" series that I've heard are beautifully remastered, with a wonderful, warm yet detailed sound.

I have the Bluebird "First Editions" remasters of the Desmond/Mulligan, Ellington's The Far East Suite and ...And His Mother Called Him Bill, Rollins' The Bridge, and Mingus' Tijuana Moods (a 2CD-set), and they're all very highly recommended

Edited June 23, 2005 by J.A.W.

[king ubu]

I know about the Mingus... and I *hate* that French edition for omitting material and still claiming to be all that great...

Now sound-wise: I compared #2 of the Bluebird and the French edition, and the French is much louder, but I thought (on my limited system, at least), they sounded pretty much the same.

However, based on your more expert views (and ears and hifi-setups) I will try to go for the Bluebirds more often (the only one I have so far, besides the Desmond, is the Carmen McRae Monk album, and that one definitely sounds great and warm!)

[J.A.W.]

Now sound-wise: I compared #2 of the Bluebird and the French edition, and the French is much louder, but I thought (on my limited system, at least), they sounded pretty much the same.

However, based on your more expert views (and ears and hifi-setups) I will try to go for the Bluebirds more often (the only one I have so far, besides the Desmond, is the Carmen McRae Monk album, and that one definitely sounds great and warm!)

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Louder isn't necessarily better. As I posted elsewhere (ad nauseam...), some engineers tend to maximize sound levels/use compression when remastering recordings, and as result the music is just LOUD, with hardly any dynamics; all life has been sucked out of it... Remasters like these give me headaches. Unfortunately these "modern" remastering techniques are quite popular nowadays

My advice: go for the American Bluebird "First Editions", you won't regret it.

Edited June 23, 2005 by J.A.W.

[jazzbo]

Yes, that McRae Monk (and the McRae tribute to Sassy!) are excellent reissues.

[king ubu]

Yes, that McRae Monk (and the McRae tribute to Sassy!) are excellent reissues.

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Is that the one with Shirley Horn's trio backing Carmen? If so, that's up on that sale, too... but I won't be able to make it there until mid next week, and maybe someone has snatched that one by then...

[jazzbo]

That's the one. It's wonderful.

[Claude]

I have compared the french 24Bit remaster and the US "First edition" reissue. The US CD sounds much better, it seems to have been made from the original master tapes, while the french CD has some reverb which could have been added to LP production tapes.

I can also recommend Sonny Rollins' "The Bridge" from the same series, which sounds better than all previous CD versions.

[chris olivarez]

I have the Gato twofer and it does have a nice sound.

[Brad]

I have the bottom one. No complaints.

[gnhrtg]

With nothing to compare them to, aside from my late 80's/early 90's initial cd releases of the same, and a very low end set up, I am also very happy with the (US) Bluebird First Edition reissues - the ones I have are Two of a Mind (where the bonus material is very much welcome) and The Bridge.

Edited June 24, 2005 by gnhrtg

[king ubu]

Thanks for weighing in!

So I guess I don't have to replace the Gato old French versions with the French Gold Series releases... same for the Ornette?

What is that Gato twofer?

There seems to be some consensus, then, on this topic! I wondered about it for quite some time, but since I have very few RCA and/or Bluebird releases, I never bothered to ask so far.

As for the Rollins: I'll stay with the (US) box I have. I assume the single discs don't add anything that's not on the box. Won't pick up single albums and have duplication there, same for the Desmond box, where I'm happy with the US Bluebird set. I assume the two boxes come from that generation of releases that also included the third pictured Desmond/Geru disc above, the one that Brad has, yes?

[J.A.W.]

Gato Barbieri Bluebird "First Editions"

[king ubu]

Gato Barbieri Bluebird "First Editions"

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Thanks Hans! I was totally unaware they do twofers *at all*! Good to know, but I have at least "Bolivia" in the old French edition, and I don't care that much for these Gatos to replace them, I think... unless I'll want "Under Fire" desparately.

[Claude]

I have the Gato Barbieri disc too. It may be the best CD transfer of these recordings, but the recording quality is not great anyway, as on most of his Flying Dutchman sessions.

But because the CD contains two albums, it is more interesting than the seperate european CD reissues.

[chuckyd4]

I have some of each of these (the French reissues and the "Bluebird Firsts" reissues), and to my ears - notably, not audiophile at all - there is little advantage one way or the other in terms of sound. Both sound damn good to me, and a heap better than the weird black/brown reissue series you showed that one picture of.

That said, the US versions undoubtedly trump the French ones in terms of extra goodies (i.e. having them vs. none at all). I think the French idea was to present the original albums on CD as closely as they could (i.e. the original cover art without extra graphics, and the original track listing), whereas the US idea was to do a proper "reissue" experience - meaning giving a complete idea of the context of the sessions as far as possible, by including alternate takes and extra tunes that didn't end up on the final product.

My 2c.

[mikeweil]

As for the Rollins: I'll stay with the (US) box I have. I assume the single discs don't add anything that's not on the box. Won't pick up single albums and have duplication there, .......

I had the older The Bridge CD Keepnews compiled, still have the box, and yet I bought the new First Editions reissue - it sounds incredible!!! The first time they were able to use the original tape!!! You can almost touch the bass strings and sax metal. All other issues used second or third generation tapes.

[king ubu]

As for the Rollins: I'll stay with the (US) box I have. I assume the single discs don't add anything that's not on the box. Won't pick up single albums and have duplication there, .......

I had the older The Bridge CD Keepnews compiled, still have the box, and yet I bought the new First Editions reissue - it sounds incredible!!! The first time they were able to use the original tape!!! You can almost touch the bass strings and sax metal. All other issues used second or third generation tapes.

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Same deal for the Paul Desmond US box? Uh... I always found sound fair enough on these, but... (also the Desmond has a very good essay).

[Claude]

Flurin,

The main difference between the earlier CD releases (including the latest french BMG 24Bit remaster) and the "First Edition" reissue is that the latter doesn't have the slight artificial reverb. Different tapes seem to have been used. This mainly improves the sound of the drums.

If I had to rate the sound, I would give the french BMG 6/10 and the First Edition 7.5/10

[king ubu]

Flurin,

The main difference between the earlier CD releases (including the latest french BMG 24Bit remaster) and the "First Edition" reissue is that the latter doesn't have the slight artificial reverb. Different tapes seem to have been used. This mainly improves the sound of the drums.

If I had to rate the sound, I would give the french BMG 6/10 and the First Edition 7.5/10

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Thanks Claude!

Your ears seem to be among the better ones around here, so I'll trust that (knowing that I myself am unable to go into the nuances...).

I wonder though, why there are different tapes? Would one not try and get the master? Or are these lost, and the search is for the best/first generation of tapes?

[J.A.W.]

Flurin,

The main difference between the earlier CD releases (including the latest french BMG 24Bit remaster) and the "First Edition" reissue is that the latter doesn't have the slight artificial reverb. Different tapes seem to have been used. This mainly improves the sound of the drums.

If I had to rate the sound, I would give the french BMG 6/10 and the First Edition 7.5/10

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I'd rate the "First Editions" reissue even higher, 8.5 out of 10, and the French 24-bitter 5 out of 10 - at the most...

[Tony Pusey]

So , does anybody have a list of the First Editions series?

[Claude]

I went through the Bluebird Jazz releases list and found these First Editions. Could be that I missed some.

http://www.bluebirdjazz.com/albums/index.jsp

- Art Blakey - Night in Tunesia

- Lonnie Liston Smith - Astral Traveling

- Gato Barbieri - Bolivia + Under Fire

- Carmen McRae - Carmen sings Monk

- Chet Baker - Chet is Back

- Paul Desmond - Desmond Blue

- Duke Ellington - Far East Suite

- Gil Evans - Plays Jimi Hendrix

- Coleman Hawkins - Hawk in Hifi

- Louis Armstrong and Friends

- Joe Williams - Newport 63

- Gil Scott-Heron - Free Will

- Lena Horne - Stormy Weather

- Sonny Rollins - The Bridge

- Oscar Peterson - This is Oscar Peterson

- Charles Mingus - Tijuana Moods

- Gerry Mulligan & Paul Desmond - Two of a mind

Edited June 27, 2005 by Claude

[J.A.W.]

And, of course, Duke Ellington's ...And His Mother Called Him Bill, the wonderful tribute to Billy Strayhorn, who had died just before these 1967 recordings.