What album turned G. Benson over to the dark side?

[AllenLowe]

and don't forget the famous Downbeat Blindfold Test, in which Mingus thought I was James Brown -

[AllenLowe]

though I was never sure if he meant James Brown the singer, or Jimmy Brown the football player -

[AllenLowe]

allright, rising to the challenge - go here for some blues of mine -

http://wsm.ezsitedesigner.com/share/scrapb..._your_Uncle.mp3

[JSngry]

Finally, anybody care to comment on the entire hip hop-rap thing as a musical expression of what black society at large had achieved? Could it be that this funk slickness was just a put-on or cover-up or or did the pendulum of development of society actually swing back?

You say that with a wink, but believe me when I tell you that the issue of "musical role-modeling" is an issue that is raised more than once and with more than a little seriousness by certain parents & educators involved in the musical culture.

Say what you want to about "slickness" and such, but the cats who made that music and those records could all play, and they had to work hard to get to that level of competency, just to go in and audition for a George Benson gig, never mind actually get it. Because you need to know that the people who get hired for those type gigs don't get them by being a one-trick pony. Weaknesses will be quickly exposed and gigs not gotten by those who have them. The notion that hip-hoppers don't have to work to get their music, wrong as it is (although "right" in an analog mindset), is not so wrongly viewed as perhaps a decline in the overall work ethic, not just of the young people of "the community", but of the nation as a whole.

And yes - people be talking about this stuff, at length, and with great seriousness. And they ain't all named Marsialis.

But of course, the notion of work ethic & upward mobility as it pertains to real people is of no concern to "us". We just want what we want when we want it & how we want it, and the rest of the time, hey, out of sight, out of mind, and let's keep it that way, ok?

Ah, the Consumer Life!

[JSngry]

though I was never sure if he meant James Brown the singer, or Jimmy Brown the football player -

I think he meant James Brown the sportscaster.

[AllenLowe]

now that's blues:

http://wsm.ezsitedesigner.com/share/scrapb..._your_Uncle.mp3

[JSngry]

allright, rising to the challenge - go here for some blues of mine -

http://wsm.ezsitedesigner.com/share/scrapb..._your_Uncle.mp3

I went. Nice, does what it sets out to do, so mission accomplished.

Tell you what - can I go on down to RL Griffin's Blues Palace & try to get you a gig? I'll pimp you as "funkier than George Benson". RL usually books his guest spots on the early show, while people are still getting loaded and making sexual hookups. It's a tough crowd, but when they hear you announced as "funkier than George Benson", they'll stop their socializing and give you a serious listen and an equally serious reception.

So, you want Friday or Saturday?

[Christiern]

But, Allen, the Lomaxes are dead and gone!

[rachel]

Seriously, how funky can you really be and say "more funky" instead of "funkier".

and quote Steve Allen...

[AllenLowe]

hey, Steverino was kosher, to paraphrase Lenny Bruce -

as for that blues gig, Texas-style - first, make sure they bill me as:

"Blue Boy Jew Boy: the New Boy ain't No Goy"

I'll take Saturday, but maybe, just to be safe, we'll just do a sound check and then go home -

[AllenLowe]

hope it's not one of those joints that Slappy White used to talk about - where every hour or so "they took an intermission to pull out the dead and wounded."

Edited July 13, 2008 by AllenLowe

[ghost of miles]

Wow--I picked a hell of a thread to revive when I went on my Benson kick, didn't I? Just got ALL BLUES in the mail yesterday and listened to it on my desk computer at work...any other suggestions for good Benson jazz sides? So far I've got UPTOWN, COOKBOOK, Jimmy Smith's THE BOSS, and ALL BLUES. (Also borrowed a Verve "Silver Collection" compilation from our station's library that looks promising, but haven't had a chance to listen yet.) Placing a Mosaic order soon whenever the Helen Merrills come out and will toss in BEYOND THE BLUE HORIZON as well.

[AllenLowe]

been away, eh? well, to save you time, I'll sum things up:

1) Benson sold out

2) Benson made a lot of money

3) Steven Allen didn't like George Benson

4) Benson and Leni Riefenstahl once went on a date, but things didn't work out, as she thought he was Jewish -

[Joe G]

Wow--I picked a hell of a thread to revive when I went on my Benson kick, didn't I? Just got ALL BLUES in the mail yesterday and listened to it on my desk computer at work...any other suggestions for good Benson jazz sides? So far I've got UPTOWN, COOKBOOK, Jimmy Smith's THE BOSS, and ALL BLUES. (Also borrowed a Verve "Silver Collection" compilation from our station's library that looks promising, but haven't had a chance to listen yet.) Placing a Mosaic order soon whenever the Helen Merrills come out and will toss in BEYOND THE BLUE HORIZON as well.

You're telling me you don't have Giblet Gravy?

[AllenLowe]

sorry, left something out:

5) Rachel murdered Steve Allen

[Joe G]

sorry, left something out:

5) Rachel murdered Steve Allen

This could be the start of something.

[AllenLowe]

well, she claims it was an accident -

[rachel]

No way that's true. Joe knows I would be too clever to claim it was an accident. I would pin it on someone else. Easily.

[JSngry]

Somebody like.....ALLEN?

?

[Chuck Nessa]

Rachel has turned more than a few to the dark side.

[danasgoodstuff]

No, comparing Benson to Reifinstahl isn't "nuts", it's hyperbole. Just as saying that he'd turned "to the dark side" is... If noting the skill involved in Benson's latter work isn't a defence, what's the point in this context? I'm as big a populist as anyone here, but that's the point - his latter work (draw the line wherever you want, where exactly is interesting but not crucial) isn't populist, IMHO his early work is, even if it was much less popular. I love Grant's latter work, tolerate Wes's, but something about Benson's just seems wrong...and to suggest that it's just because I'm white (plaid?), middle-aged, middle-class, or whatever is just insulting and cheap.

The point about people having struggled long and hard to get to "slick" is perfectly valid descriptively; it's just not on point normatively.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Wow--I picked a hell of a thread to revive when I went on my Benson kick, didn't I? Just got ALL BLUES in the mail yesterday and listened to it on my desk computer at work...any other suggestions for good Benson jazz sides? So far I've got UPTOWN, COOKBOOK, Jimmy Smith's THE BOSS, and ALL BLUES. (Also borrowed a Verve "Silver Collection" compilation from our station's library that looks promising, but haven't had a chance to listen yet.) Placing a Mosaic order soon whenever the Helen Merrills come out and will toss in BEYOND THE BLUE HORIZON as well.

You're telling me you don't have Giblet Gravy?

Yes - listen to Joe.

George also made a live recording, with Mickey Tucker, George Duvivier and Al Harewood, at the Casa Carib, Plainfield NJ in April 1973 that is very, very good. Different bits of the gig have been issued by different disreputable cheapo labels under different titles. Long tracks - the British edition I have has 6 cuts in 67 minutes, so you can see stretching out was the order of the day. And could you fault that band?

MG

[JSngry]

If noting the skill involved in Benson's latter work isn't a defence, what's the point in this context?

The man asked why R&B/pop used to be a mark of shame & now it wasn't so much so. I replied that the music had become technically more sophisticated, which by any objective standard is true. That's why you heard gajillions of cats back in the day saying "Yeah, well, it's not the real stuff, but it does have some changes and some good arrangements, so it's not that bad, not really." Craft matters to a lot of players, and playing popular music that calls for more craft than it used to was noted by those who were playing it when they might well have preferred playing something else - it wasn't perfect, but it was "better" in terms of engaging their particular skills than what such gigs used to call for.

That's not me expressing an opinion, that's me relating an "as it is/was" dynamic I observed first hand, and it's in no way unique. I'm not "defending" anything, I'm just explaining a "musician's situation" at another poster's request. I personally don't think that either the newer nor the older stuff needs any defending, since it's all gonna be what you make of it. You can make anything sublime, ridiculous, or anything in between, the only limit is your imagination and spirit, what you're willing/able to use them for.

Edited July 14, 2008 by JSngry

[JSngry]

I'm as big a populist as anyone here, but that's the point - his latter work (draw the line wherever you want, where exactly is interesting but not crucial) isn't populist, IMHO his early work is, even if it was much less popular. I love Grant's latter work, tolerate Wes's, but something about Benson's just seems wrong...and to suggest that it's just because I'm white (plaid?), middle-aged, middle-class, or whatever is just insulting and cheap.

So...in your mind, the music that sold to a relatively small audience is more "populist" that that which sold to a huge one? Because...why?

See, I'm sorry (and the race class thing was a generalized statement that you just happened to get in the way of while it was being hurled, so sorry for any personal offense, none intended, I assure you), but it kinda cracks me up when people assume that commercial music is not "populist" when they're not included in the target audience. There's this romantic notion that popular music is "populist" when the artist is..you know, aiming their work at me, and then when it's not aimed at me any more, then it's just cold, calculated crap for "the masses".

Well, that seems pretty...wrong to. I mean, sure, there's plenty of acts that sell out and just go through the motions and eventually become jaded, often to the point of being walking (or otherwise) dead. But the object of popular music is to be popular, to reach people, and to sell product. So if George Benson found that he could be more popular & sell more product by targeting an audience that does not (usually) include me. is that "selling out" or is that just being a damn good businessman? Or is there a difference?

To me, there is a difference, and it's to be found in how the act in question comports themself. Do they slack off, go through the motions, show up late or even miss gigs? Do the condescend to their audience in presentation, get sloppy, take the audience for granted? Or do they respect they audience by putting on a good show, giving the people what they came to hear in a manner that makes those who paid there money glad that they did?

Although I've hardly had my head to the ground for such things over the years, I've never heard of George Benson being less than 100% professional at any time on any gig. I've never heard of him havoing ragged bands, halfass presentations, or talking down to his audiences. I've never heard a record of his with less than intended top-shelf production values, or music played in other than the way that the target audience for the product would want to hear it played. I've never heard of him not giving the people at his pop shows what they came to hear. And if "the people" does not include stone jazz fans who want to hear him do something else, well hey, let's all just swallow our pride and face the fact that a George Benson pop show or pop record is aimed at a "populist" market that does not include us. If we're not included, that doesn't mean it's not "populist", it just means that there's a brand of populism involved that doesn't include us.

And yes, race does come into this, as a general factor. People always asking "Where's the Black jazz audience gone?" well hey - go to a "Smooth Jazz" show or festival and check the demographic. "But that's NOT JAZZ"I hear people saying. Ok, whatever, but that was not the question, dig? It was Cecil Taylor who said (and I'm paraphrasing here, but not too loosely) hat white people have yet to disabuse themselves of the notion that they have something that black people want or need. Make of that what you will, but in my lifetime, I've seen white folks who were into 50/60s R&B call funk "crap", white folks who were into funk call rap/hip-hop "crap", white folks who were into straight-ahead jazz call the various forms of R&B-based Pop Jazz that have come down the pike over the years "crap", in short, I've seen all kinds of white people react to new forms of popular black music that don't immediately hold up a sign that says "FOR WHITE FOLKS TOO!!!" "crap". I see this (and keep on seeing it), and that line from Cecil Taylor seems not altogether irrelevant, even if it is not (nor ever was) the "whole story". But it is there, I believe, and white folk, forever seeing themselves as Fair & Balanced In All Things, don't like to entertain that possibility. Oh well...

None of this, btw, is to "defend" George Benson's overtly pop/commercial/whatever career. As I said earlier, it needs no defense, especially from me. But I will defend his business ethic, against any implications that he's not put effort into providing a product that his target audience will find a quality one by their standards.

And oh by the way - speaking of business, doesn't it seem as if Benson has done a good job keeping his money? Of reaching a very high level of stardom and not fucking up, either personally of contractually? That puts him in what approximate percentile of people? "Ain't got shit to do with the music" I hear people frothing. Once again, a fundamental misunderstanding as to who/what George Benson Is. His business is the music and the music is his business, and he's handled that the way he wanted to to get what he wanted.

Lessee -man has skills. Man hones skills to very high level. Man uses skills to create business for/of himself. Man grows business to the point where man becomes independently wealthy. Man has no reputation for backstabbing or otherwise unethical business practices. Man simply uses what he has to get what he wants.

Sorry, folks, but I don't have any real problems with that. The last George Benson album that I would even consider owning for non-professional reasons is Weekend In L.A., and that's like, what, almost 30 years old (and is it just me, or do "jazz fans" sometimes resemble Southerners constantly reliving/refighting the Civil War, as if a Great Wrong was perpetrated that by god, WE WILL NEVER FORGET, and in the meantime, life goes on and on and on for literally everybody else?), and I'm not pissed about that one bit, nor do I feel betrayed or otherwise offended that George Benson has turned out to be a better businessman than damn near everybody I know combined.

Pop is not the enemy, and George Benson is not a problem.

Edited July 14, 2008 by JSngry

[Jim Alfredson]

And yes, race does come into this, as a general factor. People always asking "Where's the Black jazz audience gone?" well hey - go to a "Smooth Jazz" show or festival and check the demographic. "But that's NOT JAZZ"I hear people saying. Ok, whatever, but that was not the question, dig?

This is 100% true.