Classic Records Blue Note Mono reissues

[wolff]

As I've said before I'm really liking these. Have quite a few now and will be ordering more. Usually get them from Red Trumpet during one of their $4 off each, with free shipping sales. RT is also cool on returns which can happen with these hard to press 200 gram, flat edge slabs. I have not had to return any of the Blue Note titles.

I love the way they sound. Less compression and loudness(thank god). A few still have issues with the HF distortions that are on the tapes, but much less then other reissues.

I can actually turn 'em up and relax into some of them.

For some reason it took me a while to really warm to these, but now I'm hooked.

Latest releases:

Sonny Red: Out of the Blue

Horace Silver: 6 Pieces of Silver

Lou Donaldson: Lou Takes Off

Benny Green: Back On The Scene

Jackie McLean: Swing, Swang, Swingin'

Edited May 12, 2005 by wolff

[sidewinder]

Share your views about these 'Classic' reissues. I've got a couple (Lee Morgan 'Candy' and Dizzy Reece 'Star Bright') and will definitely add to these. With the price of decent quality 47W63rd DG's going through the roof and beyond ( ) these are a very acceptable alternative at a fraction of the price. Sounds like Red Trumpet is the way to go to pick them up - I've enjoyed dealing with them in the past, nice operation.

Edited May 14, 2005 by sidewinder

[Z-Man]

The only one of these I have is the Dizzy Reece "Star Bright", and it is wonderful. I have a Classic reissue of "Lou Takes Off"', but it is stereo. That also sounds great, but sounds a little compressed and sterile to me compared to the Reece. Same thing with Kenny Drew's "Undercurrent".

From the mono series I will be picking up the McLean and Hank's "Soul Station" ASAP.

[J.A.W.]

According to this Steve Hoffman forum thread and this Steve Hoffman forum thread some of the Classic reissues seem to have problems.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Interesting threads although it would be nice to see more of the posters ("My return rate with 200g Classic pressings is about 60%") mention individual titles. Didn't notice anyone pointing the finger at particular jazz titles.....just certain rock titles like CS&N and 'Who's Next' (which seems to be a real stinker). No problems at this end with the 200gr BN titles (Candy, Johnny Griffin, Hank Mobley, J.R. Monterose) or the 180 gr. Epic titles (Coles, Dave Bailey, etc.). A different story however with the pricey 180 gr. Miles KOB blue vinyl and had to return several inferior copies. Classics had a less than cordial staffer who gave me a real hard time over the matter so I did an end run on him and went straight to Mr. Hobson who was exceptionally pleasant and surprisingly called me at the house several times to confer. Back to 200 gr.....the Johnny Griffin was one that he specifically recommended..and it's a beauty. Have you picked that one up, Mr. Wolff?

[porcy62]

After this rumors about Classic Records' problems, I listened carefully at most of my copies, Zep, CSN, Hendrix, BN, Dylan and Who. Maybe I am a lucky guy, but I didn't find any problems.

[wolff]

Didn't notice anyone pointing the finger at particular jazz titles.................. Back to 200 gr.....the Johnny Griffin was one that he specifically recommended..and it's a beauty.  Have you picked that one up, Mr. Wolff?

I've returned 2 copies of Ellington: Piano In The Foreground for noise(10-20 clicks/pops). And an Ellington/Armstrong which was even worse.

Have all 3 Griffin titles Classic has done in this series. All good, but I like 'Introducing" best.

The one in this series to avoid is Morgan: Vol. 3 (BN 1557). HF distortion is bad baby, bad. Keeping my nice JPN pressing.

Edited May 15, 2005 by wolff

[ajf67]

I have been generally satisfied with Classic, but had problems with their "Kind Of Blue" stereo re-issue (noise) and have major complaints with the mastering of the mono "Moanin'."

[Chuck Nessa]

Why do you trust Hoffman and why trust the mastering engineers at Classic. If you want the vinyl, buy the vinyl. Lots of shell games going on in the "vinyl" world.

[wolff]

Not really sure what you are saying. Trust?

I buy from Classic because I've purchased a lot of their product(over 10-15 years now) and have been happy with it. They are having problems with QC lately and there has always been debate over the best sounding this and the best sounding that.

Regarding Hoffman, pretty much the same thing. His DCC efforts were great. His S&P efforts are great. Others can attest to his efforts/results on the 45RPM series of 100 Fantasy jazz/blues titles that's in progress, as I have none.

[Chuck Nessa]

Since you don't understand me I'll go away. Forget I ever posted here.

I supervised lp mastering and pressing for over 20 years. I might have some info.

Mastering engineers I've dealt with include Bob Ludwig, RVG, John Bittner, Roger Seibel, Bob Fine, Joe Wells and a few others.

Pressing plant quality is a very different thing. Mastering and pressing do not have anything to do with one another.

No mention of plating companies?

Please tell me about those guys. That is where "pressing noise" originates.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Chuck Nessa

[wolff]

Yes, the QC issues Classic is having are quite interesting, if what I've read is true.

From what I gather, RTI(pressing plant) has tried to convince Classic not to do the 200 gram pressings as they are very hard to do. Classic refuses to go back to doing 180 gram.

This is why I blame Classic and not the pressing plant for all the defects in the 200gram vinyl. I have tons of great 180 gram vinyl from RTI.

Then again, why doesn't RTI refuse Classic's business?

Edited May 24, 2005 by wolff

[wolff]

Here is another thing I've heard from a reliable source. RTI also does plating right there at the pressing plant, but Classic goes somewhere else. Some feel this a cause of some of the problems.

Chuck, I'm sure if you took a tour of Classic's process you'd see what was going on. Hoffman does know about quiet, defect free vinyl. He uses RTI's plating and pressing services.

I'd like to be more specific. Thing is, the people who could shed real light are employees. From Bernie Grundman(mastering engineer) on down the line to the folks at RTI. They aren't really talking, or naming names.

Edited May 24, 2005 by wolff

[Bill Nelson]

Chuck Nessa: "Why do you trust Steve Hoffman?"

Well, how 'bout cause he's got no vested interest in 200-gram vinyl product. In fact, Steve's politely kept his distance from Classic and their wrong-headed 200-gram Q-slabs. Hoffman has flat-out said you cannot properly manufacture audiophile vinyl at the 200-gram level, period. As in, don't buy it or else you're asking for trouble. Comparing Classic 200's with the brilliant sound of Steve's 180-gram DCC pressings is why I trust Hoffman.

[Stefan Wood]

I had a couple of Classics, then sold them. Overall I am not happy with current vinyl production, no matter how much effort has been put into them. I look at Hoffman's forums and read them with a grain of salt. I think he's all right, but there has developed a culture of audiophiles who have become to obsessed with the "purity" of sound, rather than listening to the music. Noise factor is one. How dead quiet can one expect these to be? I can still find old records, still sealed, open them, clean them (does any one clean their records before playing? In distilled water?) and have the faintest of noise. I am not putting down anyone who is buying the stuff -- I think it is reasonable to purchase a Classics lp rather than hunting for a 1st pressing. But talking about 180 vs 200 g, where they are pressed, etc. Yikes!

Plus, I fail to see how people can dismiss Chuck's insights -- who has been in the business for 30+ years.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Stefan Wood

[hockman]

I've been pleased with some of my Classic Records reissues (strong praise indeed since I don't normally like audiophile vinyl reissues), but I'm talking about some of the Sonny Rollins RCA albums on 180gm.

My few samples of the 200gm reissues have been disappointing. I have the JR Monterose one and it doesn't sound all that great.

Finally I don't see the point in doing 200gm vinyl. Vinyl quality matters more than weight. The thickness is just a false marketing point and an excuse to charge more. I have plenty of 120 gm or less pressings which sound great.

The only other "audiophile" reissue house that I like is Speakers Corner of Germany.

Hockman

[ajf67]

My two cents on this: For one, I am not very fussy about noise on the older LPs I have and buy. I try to buy them in the best condition possible and clean them, but I recognize it is sometimes/often going to be there and generally get right past it. I've found that as I pay attention to the music, my brain is a great noise filter, particularly if it is generalized underlying noise and not a repetitive click, click, click that comes from a scratch.

The noise I was complaining about in my post above was clearly a pressing problem, which I do think is an issue if I'm buying an allegedly premium product from some place like Classic. As I also said above, I am generally OK with Classic. I think they put out mostly good product, and it is a good alternative to spending a hell of a lot more on the originals, which have gone out-of-sight price wise.

The worst problem I have had with Classic is their mastering of the mono re-issue of Moanin'. This of course has nothing to do with my listening to it on an LP format. They could put the same mastering job on a CD or SACD and I think it would still sound bad.

As far as Hoffman goes, I don't know much about him so I can't say.

And Chuck, I hope you do continue to post in this forum, because you have a lot to add about mastering and such. Just don't get so frustrated with some of us who haven't had the experiences you have.

[ajf67]

Oh, I forgot to add that I can't see a reason to buy 200 gram Lps. I just don't get it at all. Seems like a scam of the "mine's bigger" variety. I suppose somebody somewhere has a chart with a graph showing minute noise vibrations that 200 gram advocates claim will be reduced by their thick records, but give me a break. I have plenty of Lps that sound great and are thin.

[porcy62]

Agreed on all ajf67 comments.

Actually I have some Lou Reed's records on RCA's flexy vinyl that sound ok.

[mikeweil]

There was an interesting remark in the liner to a recent Peggy Lee Capitol CD reissue stating the engineers at the time were instructed to take utmost care to the mono mix and mastering - stereo was still of slightly less importance in the late 1960's as a market. With the lack of experience in properly balancing instruments in two-track stereo, I can imagine some mono mixes sound better.

I wish they would do hybrid SACD with both mono and stereo mixes as a rule, like the recent John Coltrane / Johnny Hartman.

Edited May 27, 2005 by mikeweil

[DrJ]

I personally think that in this day and age that when one sells a vinyl record product, it ought to be pretty goddam quiet - period. It doesn't matter to me what the problem is - pressing plant, mastering, improper storage, whatever - if it's noisy, it's inexcusable to sell it.

Vinyl for better or worse is now a largely audiophile niche market. Sure when I buy a cheap, somewhat worn copy of a 30+ year old record I'm not going to bitch about crackle and pop, and I still enjoy many such records (the bulk of my collection is made up of same, in fact).

But when I shell out a premium amount of cash for something touted as brand new audiophile vinyl and it cracks and pops like crazy, then it's a major problem and the buyer has every right to be pissed that anyone tried to fob it off on them.

And again, it's not the consumer's problem to figure out what went wrong or to be cowed into not complaining by touchy veteran industry insiders.

FWIW - Hoffman is indeed not the only one who was involved with the DCC 180g audiophile vinyl series, but he was one of the major players (as the remastering engineer), and having a few of those titles I can tell you that I have yet to come across any vinyl that can match those titles for surface as well as overall sonic quality. Absolutely drop dead quiet, and a quality product in every single other way you can think of as well.

The gold standard IMHO, a shining example that it can be done right and there's no excuse for that not happening.

[wolff]

I'll tell you who is doing a great job with vinyl and jazz these days...Eighty-Eight's(japan). Their team is a who's who of great jazz, great mastering, nice vinyl and great recording, both past and present.

Yasohachi Itoh

David Baker

Tohro Kotetsu (JVC Mastering Japan)

And they are originals, not reissues. Give one a spin.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Have they been reading this thread? All "self-proclaimed experts" take two steps forward!! From the latest 'Classic' online newsletter that rolled out this morning:

PART ONE - The Foundations of Classic Records

With the advent of Web Logs or "Blogs" as they are commonly referred to, it seems appropriate that we use this re-invented bulletin board approach to communication to share information about what we do at Classic Records. As members of the Classic Records team, we will strive to use the Classic Blog as a means to address issues, let consumers submit questions, and to generally educate people in the process of making records.

Increasingly, it has become apparent that the internet has become a pulpit for self proclaimed experts (SPE's) to state as "fact" or "truth" ideas that are more appropriately described as misguided speculation at best and the smelly stuff at worst. So consider this the beginning of the Classic Records blog which will soon have a permanent address or link from our web site - stay tuned for those details.

So, how to start? By reiterating the foundations of Classic Records and what we are trying to accomplish. The first pillar in the foundation is that of "authenticity" by which we intend to recreate a record that has the same look and feel as an original pressing of the title. That is, if the original jacket was a tip-on construction - printed paper adhered to a cardboard backing - then we should use the same construction on the "authentic" reissue. The labels should be authentic in their color and typography as well. If the original issue had a film laminate then so should the "authentic" reissue. The obvious question then becomes: "Does "authentic" also apply to the sound of the record?" The answer is NO and the reason is based in the other pillar of the foundation which is "Integrity". Interpreted in terms of sound, for Classic Records "Integrity" means that the sound of the LP transfer should preserve the "integrity" of the recording and not that of the original LP issue. Why is that? you might rightly ask. The answer comes from the experience of listening to the sometimes radical differences between the master tapes and the LP's that were originally issued as representations, often poor one's, of what was actually recorded. So am I saying that the "Holy Grail" is the recording and not an original LP transfer of same? Yes, that is exactly what I am saying and anyone with professional recording, mastering or cutting experience would acknowledge the inherent truth in this distinction.

Having now assailed and probably offended (unintentionally) the outspoken experts who sit at home comparing multiple different pressings of a 50 year old recording, never having heard anything approaching the master tape from the session, let me say that I find nothing inherently wrong with said comparative pursuits. I personally get a little bored with repeated comparisons of records which seem to be motivated mostly by the outcome of proclaiming a "winner" or more often "owner/winner". That said, SPE's (self proclaimed experts) can announce their finding that a non-vendor copy of said collectible record is the best sounding but I submit that this a purely objective opinion of a comparison among records and has no bearing on the "integrity" of the representation of the recording embodied in the LP they are proclaiming "the one to have" or better, "the one" to be sought after.

Having never heard a master tape of a title means that SPE's have a distinct disadvantage when they try and explain why a Classic reissue sounds different (NOT NECESSARILY BETTER OF WORSE) from their fabled and rare original pressing which they have announced themselves as the "winner/owner" and sometimes "dealer" of. There are even those among the SPE's that have been allowed to attend a mastering session with original pressings and master on hand and have later reported that Classic reissues are not the equal of the original LP because the wire used in the studio was not of the proper "audiophile" standards which of course it was (NOT) in 1960 at RCA cutting facilities in New York or Hollywood. The point here is not to try and discredit the SPE's which would be like fishing for goldfish with dynamite, instead it is to make clear that "Integrity" from a reissue standpoint and more specifically with regard to sound, requires focus on the original master tape using copies of original and other pressings from same as a tool in the process rather than the objective.

To be continued.....

Michael Hobson (Founder and President)

[porcy62]

Wow!

This man has some problems with criticisms.

I would like to hear a comment of Chuck about it.

Edited May 28, 2005 by porcy62

[ajf67]

I must be one of those since I was complaining about the mastering!

I will say that I think they do a great job of getting the details he describes. The album covers, labels etc are all spot on. I also think the sound of them is generally first-rate also, I just ask him to listen to the piano levels on Monin' and please tell me its like the original tape. Puh-leeeze. I doubt it's a tape problem, because the recent RVG CD of it sounds much closer to the original LP, and I bet ol' Rudy used the same tapes.