Stevie Wonder

[Degiorgio]

Welcome to Organissimo. Shit like this is the order of the day

so I'm learning...

I'm still trying to tie together Chuck's comments about pop and an album as uncommercial and downright weird as Fulfillingness' First Finale!

[Degiorgio]

Are you Jazz Kat?

I nearly missed that one...

[marcello]

Some where I have a tape of Andrew White being interviewed on the radio late one night on WHAM when he was in town playing bass for The Fifth Dimension at a supper club. Andrew also played bass for Stevie Wonder.

Now if you know Andrew's music and rep;( at the time his own label was putting out a lot of records )

he is no pansy. I have a tape of hime with the Elvin Jones band that also had Ari Brown in the front line with Woody Shaw sitting in. And Chuck, Mr. White came close to your descripton of "Great Music" that night at the Vanguard.

This is starting to be a long story just to tell you that as Andrew was discussing his work ,in realtion to what he did to make money, he said " the gig is fine and Stevie treats me right but he's no genius, you know, like people say." Now he said that in a very nice, but matter of fact way.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Stevie Wonder's finest music happened during that brief moment when pop was free to dream. Experimentation and even excess were allowed because the folks running the show weren't sure whether or not it was useless to them (financially). Subsequently, they did figure out that creativity did not fit into their scheme of things and we ended up where we are now, i.e., with a b.s. TV show creating the next big thing out of next to nothing and everything being derivative and ultimately primitive and juvenile.

Wonder was one of several over the course of a decade or so who advanced pop music, sometimes in huge steps, showing that it was possible to do things - and doing them well. Like many, I would be interested in hearing more from his early 1970s period.

Apparently the word "genius" is reserved for the trite labeling of those who make names for themselves in spite of physical disability - Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Ludwig von Beethoven - or am I now drifting into that other thread.....

Mike

[JSngry]

Which one is that, the "Was Beethoven Black?" thread?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

No, the "What genius are you listening to now" thread.

Mike

[Jim Alfredson]

Apparently the word "genius" is reserved for the trite labeling of those who make names for themselves in spite of physical disability - Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Ludwig von Beethoven - or am I now drifting into that other thread.....

Apparently it's not hip to consider Stevie a genius. That's fine. I'm happy being labeled unhip.

The man created timeless music, which is more than most who dismiss him can say.

[JSngry]

"Genius" is one of those words that...you know... ultimately don't really mean shit except in terms of IQ statistics. And even then...

So many different realms and methods in and by which to be a "genius", all (ok, MOST) of them valid, but none of them necessarily relevant outside of their own immediate point of reference.

Was Brian Wilson at his peak a "genius"? Yeah, in his own world and in his own way. Was Bird a "genius"? Hell yeah, but in a totally different way than was Bird, obviously. And to an old-school Eurocentric intellectual, both of them weren't about nuthin' compared to Bach.

So what does that prove? Hell if I know, other than that that which means most to us is that which we are more likely to scrutinize closely and evaluate critically. Which is both a blessing and a curse...

No answers here, Jack!

Edited May 4, 2005 by JSngry

[Alon Marcus]

Apparently the word "genius" is reserved for the trite labeling of those who make names for themselves in spite of physical disability - Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Ludwig von Beethoven - or am I now drifting into that other thread.....

Apparently it's not hip to consider Stevie a genius. That's fine. I'm happy being labeled unhip.

The man created timeless music, which is more than most who dismiss him can say.

Stevie Wonder is the Ellington of pop.

[marcello]

I have to say that I love Carmen doing Wonder's "Superwoman" on "Live at Bubba's".

Have you hared that?

[Big Al]

Apparently the word "genius" is reserved for the trite labeling of those who make names for themselves in spite of physical disability - Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Ludwig von Beethoven - or am I now drifting into that other thread.....

Apparently it's not hip to consider Stevie a genius. That's fine. I'm happy being labeled unhip.

The man created timeless music, which is more than most who dismiss him can say.

No kidding! I used to get a lot of grief from other guys when I was in college. To them, Rush (the band, not the blowhard) was the epitome of "genius." Go figure.

[Jim Alfredson]

Yeah, but Rush aren't handicapped, so they can't be geniuses.

At least, they aren't physically handicapped.

nyuk nyuk

[Degiorgio]

"Now if you know Andrew's music and rep;( at the time his own label was putting out a lot of records ) he is no pansy."

no pansy indeed if the Andrews Music albums I have heard are the same Andrew White. (Smilin Jane is a fave of mine from one of these series). Interesting quote... but I wonder what context to take it. As a musician or lyricist - sure Stevie is no genius. BUT - take the next point:

"Wonder was one of several over the course of a decade or so who advanced pop music, sometimes in huge steps"

I agree. I would place Stevie alongside Steely Dan and Joni Mitchell for the artists I most admire and who managed to make great art which also advanced pop music. But even SD required the most skilled LA sessionists to flesh out their creations - and likewise Joni used top sessionists and arrangers for Court & Spark, Hissing, etc. At the age of 21(?) with engineering from Margouleff & Cecil, Stevie managed to self-produce, arrange, write and exclusively perform a hugely successful solo album using very unorthodox instruments rarely used in pop.

Edited May 4, 2005 by Degiorgio

[Degiorgio]

I have to say that I love Carmen doing Wonder's "Superwoman" on "Live at Bubba's".

I haven't heard it but I think this track is a great example of how Stevie achieved greatness in this period. Superwoman is much covered (the Quincy Jones version is killer) and is well loved by millions. But listen again to the original... this is not some of Chuck's 'nostalgic, warm, crap' - this is not an average pop structure or easy listening. The vocal harmonies are quite harsh reflecting the lyrical content (I believe this is about marital strife - 'she tries to boss the bull around') the chords are just beautiful and what about that breakdown?! a string section created by multi-layering stacked oscillator tones into chords and a electronic 'techno' style bassline - predating Headhunters by a year or so...

The daring experimentation on these albums is sometimes overlooked IMO due to the familiarity of both the material and the artist (who admittedly perhaps hasn't helped himself lately).

[wolff]

Pissin' all over a harmless, feel good thread. Well done. LMAO

Full moon????

Why don't you guys have the courage to start your own negative threads. Hint. Title it: Why Stevie Wonder should not have his unreleased material released......

Amazing what some of you bring to the table. I'm really sorry Stevie Wonder is more popular than all but a few jazz musicians ever will be, and is called a genius IMO he has brought more joy and aesthetics to music lovers that only a few jazz artists have achieved. Go ahead and degrade because he was in the wrong genre. A genre that is still trying to catch up to his influence. He changed pop/R&B as much as other genius musicians changed their genres.

Edited May 4, 2005 by wolff

[couw]

So I guess "over the friggin' top" is the order of the day.

reading some of your replies off late, I would say, yes.

[doubleM]

What Wolff said!!!

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Please remember that Stevie Wonder did not get the "genius" title after making those wonderful early 1970s albums. He got it a decade earlier on his very first LP - "Little Stevie Wonder - The 12 Year Old Genius" - so please let's not think that such obvious hyperbole isn't tainted. It was Motown marketing that attempted to hook him into the hype of Ray Charles.

Mike

[marcello]

The term genius is a term that should be used very judiciously.

Like Mike implies, in the music marketplace, it's used to sell records and create hyberbole.

Now for me, personally, there are few true geniuses. Being a Italian, there is a "Leonardo Standard" that gets in the way of useing the term lightly. For us/Myself, it means someone who does MANY diverse things greatly, effortlessly; a trailblazer. I DO rate Ellington as one. On the other hand, I don't rate Smmmy Davis Jr. as one though. ( Who I saw from the wings of Radio City ( he played with Buddy Rich for a week ) and he was fabulous and even truly emotional. Riveting on stage.

Now I've seen Wonder twice. Both times in the early 70's including a show with the Stones where he made it very hard for them to follow him. Great entertainer. Like Sammy.

Edited May 4, 2005 by marcello

[Joe G]

Main Entry: ge·nius

Pronunciation: 'jEn-y&s, 'jE-nE-&s

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural ge·nius·es or ge·nii  /-nE-"I/

Etymology: Latin, tutelary spirit, natural inclinations, from gignere to beget

1 a plural genii : an attendant spirit of a person or place b plural usually genii : a person who influences another for good or bad

2 : a strong leaning or inclination : PENCHANT

3 a : a peculiar, distinctive, or identifying character or spirit b : the associations and traditions of a place c : a personification or embodiment especially of a quality or condition

4 plural usually genii : SPIRIT, JINNI

5 plural usually geniuses a : a single strongly marked capacity or aptitude <had a genius for getting along with boys -- Mary Ross> b : extraordinary intellectual power especially as manifested in creative activity c : a person endowed with transcendent mental superiority; especially : a person with a very high intelligence quotient

Don't know who that helps, but...

[John L]

So many different realms and methods in and by which to be a "genius", all (ok, MOST) of them valid, but none of them necessarily relevant outside of their own immediate point of reference.

!

That is very well put.

For example, we often look for evidence of genius in the arts in the creation of something profoundly timeless. But what about the genius to create something that is so perfectly of time and place that it has a huge immediate impact but will almost certainly become irrelevant in 20 years? (I think of much of Stevie's work as timeless, but that is just an example.)

Genius can come in many forms.

[JamesJazz]

Heard Stevie Wonder sit in at Beans Bowles' wake with some bona fide Detroit jazz guys, and he really played. He played a version of "Giant Steps" that impressed the other musicians...'played his ass off' was one comment.

[GregN]

Genius is essentially socially defined or negated. Many things go into whether one person becomes highly regarded and another virtually ignored. Factors way beyond the artist, and without the artist. Yes, there is hype in the entertainment industry. However, as one noted contemporary philosopher has recently published, "Bullshit is very American". In general, we hype to sell. To sell our 'selfs' (our concepts of self, that is), to sell our ideas, and to sell our ideals. Throw hyper-critical art critics into the equation and it can get heated and stupid.

With that said, there is a bit of narcissism (at least in the psychological sense of the term) implied whenever we go so far as to call one person a genius and not another.

Notice spelling:

Genus, certainly applies: for a it would appear that a very young man brought his brand of Saginaw soul to the hearts and minds of millions. AND to this day, moves people. New recruits!!; not just nostalgia driven consumption/regurgitation. Genus, in the sense that a whole category of music evolved and grew from his participation.

If a prerequisite for genius is positive social good, then Stevie is at the very least worthy of consideration for just such a category.

Greg

[neveronfriday]

Lol

This thread gave me a good laugh. Someone asks a valid question, some fans jump in and then it doesn't take long for someone to waddle in there and urinate into everyone's beer. This attracts other urination followers, then some who try to neutralize the bad taste and others who don't know if they really need to relieve themselves or not.

There is a Monty Python sketch in there somewhere.

P.S.: It always surprises me how absolutely unshakable some people's reference points are. To stay with the imagery, they'd rather drown in pee than to concede a millimeter to the other camp. What is the term for that? Conservative? Traditionalism? Narrowmindedness?

Edited May 4, 2005 by neveronfriday

[Big Al]

What is the term for that? Conservative? Traditionalism? Narrowmindedness?

Narrowmindednessa?