Crown CLP 5056 - Jazz Confidential -

[mikeweil]

This LP is a compilation, and could anybody provide me with info on the titles marked * - thanks as always:

Side One:

1. Crazy Time (Dave Brubeck)

2. Blue Lou (Wardell Gray)

3. Cold Night *

4. Big Boy *

Side Two:

1. Journey's End (Cal Tjader)

2. Groovin' High *

3. Wash Out *

The LP cover just names all (?) musicians on the front cover without attributing specific titles. Recording dates on the unmarked tracks would also be appreciated.

Edited April 27, 2005 by mikeweil

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Try a search on groups.google.com - Jack Woker has sorted out almost everything about the series of mystery records issued on Crown.

Hopefully this link works:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.mu...d3db4bf9f9771b3

Mike

[Stereojack]

This LP is a compilation, and could anybody provide me with info on the titles marked * - thanks as always:

Side One:

1. Crazy Time (Dave Brubeck)

2. Blue Lou (Wardell Gray)

3. Cold Night *

4. Big Boy *

Side Two:

1. Journey's End (Cal Tjader)

2. Groovin' High *

3. Wash Out *

There are different versions of this available. My copy is a little different from yours:

1. Crazy Time (aka Crazy Chris)

2. Blue Lou

3. Body and Soul

4. Cold Night

1. Journey's End - Cal Tjader

2. Big Boy (Part 1)

3. Groovin' High

4. Wash Out

Big Boy - Lighthouse All Stars - June, 1952, location unknown

Shorty Rogers (tp), Milt Bernhart (tb), Jimmy Giuffre (ts), Frank Patchen (p), Howard Rumsey (b), Shelly Manne (d)

Groovin' High - "Just Jazz" All Stars - April 29, 1947, Pasadena, CA

Howard McGhee (tp), Sonny Criss (as), Wardell Gray (ts), Dodo Marmarosa (p), Red Callendar (b), Jackie Mills (d)

Cold Night - this track also appears on Crown 5008 (Jazz Surprise) as "High Time". The track features an R&B style tenor sax, no idea who it is.

Wash Out - again, no details, but the alto player sounds an awful lot like Jackie McLean. Another track by the same alto player (These Foolish Things, issued on a Stan Getz LP on United) has been accredited to Sonny Stitt in some discographies, but I believe that this is false.

[mikeweil]

Thanks a lot - Jackie McLean came into my mind, too.

Bruyninckx has "Concert, University of California, Los Angeles, California, early 1958" for the Tjader track - is that info from you, Jack?

[mikeweil]

Since we're talking about those Crown LPs:

Bruyninckx mentions "Jazz Latino" by a Tjader group on Crown CLP 5288 - do you have any more info on that? One guy who offered this on ebay says it is a lengthy 12 minute track.

[Stereojack]

Since we're talking about those Crown LPs:

Bruyninckx mentions "Jazz Latino" by a Tjader group on Crown CLP 5288 - do you have any more info on that? One guy who offered this on ebay says it is a lengthy 12 minute track.

Bruyninckx has it wrong. "Jazz Latino" is actually "Bill B" from the Fantasy LP "Jazz at the Blackhawk". It runs 6:50. My edition of Bruyninckx shows "Jazz Latino" as being from the 1/20/57 Blackhawk session, but what Mr. B doesn't know is that it is simply a retitling of one of the tracks on the LP.

Years ago I had a Crown LP that featured Dave Brubeck and Cal Tjader, among others. The Brubeck track was entitled "At a Perfume Counter", and the Tjader was "Jazz Latino". Eventually I determined that the Brubeck & Tjader tracks were from Fantasy, and once I had the Fantasy albums, there was no need to keep the Crown record, so I can't confirm the catalog number. However, I can tell you with certainty that these tracks are not exclusive to Crown. "At a Perfume Counter" was actually "Crazy Chris", btw, and I see that Raben does show this as being on Crown 5056/5288 as well as the Fantasy issues. So I guess that the Crown LP I had years ago was the one that was offered on Ebay.

[Stereojack]

Bruyninckx has "Concert, University of California, Los Angeles, California, early 1958" for the Tjader track - is that info from you, Jack?

My edition of Bruyninckx says November 5, 1957, San Francisco. I'd be willing to bet that this track can also be traced to Fantasy, but somebody's gotta sit down and compare tracks, and I just don't have the energy.

[mikeweil]

Bruyninckx has "Concert, University of California, Los Angeles, California, early 1958" for the Tjader track - is that info from you, Jack?

My edition of Bruyninckx says November 5, 1957, San Francisco. I'd be willing to bet that this track can also be traced to Fantasy, but somebody's gotta sit down and compare tracks, and I just don't have the energy.

I compared this to all other Tjader quartet tracks on Fantasy - not identical to any other.

Is that the latest edition of Bryuninckx you have? I can't afford the update right now.

In my older edition he links this to a Brew Moore track with Tjader, "Dues Blues"" on Fantasy 3-264. Sound and style etc. would fit into the scheme.

[Stereojack]

Is that the latest edition of Bryuninckx you have? I can't afford the update right now.

In my older edition he links this to a Brew Moore track with Tjader, "Dues Blues"" on Fantasy 3-264. Sound and style etc. would fit into the scheme.

Mine is not the current edition. I have the series of paperbacks with the brownish covers that came out in the 1980's.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Bruyninckx CDROM -

-Jazz at the Blackhawk- : Cal Tjader Quartet : Cal Tjader (vib) Vince Guaraldi (p) Gene Wright (b) Al Torres (d)

San Francisco, CA., January 20, 1957

Land's end Fantasy 3241

I've never been in love before -

Lover come back to me (*) -

Thinking of you, MJQ (*) -

Blues in the night (*) -

Bill B. -

I'll remember April -

Two for blues suite -

When the sun comes out -

Jazz latino (+) Crown CLP5288

Note : Entire session except (+) on Fantasy 8096, OJC 436, CD436-2. (*) These titles on Jazztone J1277,

see also May 24, 1956 for more titles.

and

Cal Tjader Quartet : Cal Tjader (vib) Vince Guaraldi (p) Dean Reilly (b) Bobby White (d)

San Francisco, CA., November 5, 1957

Journey's end Crown CLP5056, Modern MST827

Note : Crown CLP5056 entitled "Jazz confidential".

Lord CDROM 5.0

Jazz at the Blackhawk: Cal Tjader Quartet:

Cal Tjader (vib) Vince Guaraldi (p) Gene Wright (b) Al Torres (d)

San Francisco, CA, January 20, 1957

Land's end Fantasy 3241, OJC 436, OJC CD436-2 [CD]

I've never been in love before - - -

Lover come back to me (*) - - -

Thinking of you, MJQ (*) - - -

Blues in the night (*) - - -

Bill B. - - -

I'll remember April - - -

Two for blues suite - - -

When the sun comes out - - -

Jazz latino Crown CLP5288

Note: Fantasy 3241(mono) = 8096(stereo).

(*) These 3 titles also on Jazztone J1277 titled "Delightfully light".

and

Cal Tjader Quartet:

Cal Tjader (vib) Vince Guaraldi (p) Dean Reilly (b) Bobby White (d)

San Francisco, CA, November 5, 1957

Journey's end Crown CLP5056, Modern MST827

Mike

[JSngry]

Wash Out - again, no details, but the alto player sounds an awful lot like Jackie McLean. Another track by the same alto player (These Foolish Things, issued on a Stan Getz LP on United) has been accredited to Sonny Stitt in some discographies, but I believe that this is false.

I have that "Things" on a Crown "Getz" LP - (Crown CLP-5415), which is actually "Groovin' High" w/Wardell Grey, etc. from a Just Jazz Concert, "Things" (which is actually a medley combined w/"Embraceable You") on one side, and 4 cuts ("Evergreen", "Bye Bye" (based on "Gone With The Wind", "The Groove", & "Lucky Me" (based on "It Could Happen To You" ) by what I believe I once read in a discography long ago and far away was a Gerald Wiggins 4tet w/Buddy Collette, which would make sense, because the cover lists the album as being by Stan Getz, Errol Garner, Sonny Criss, and Buddy Collette.

The altoist on the medley sounds a lot like McClean, but I don't think it is. Little stylistic/technical things here and there don't sound like McLean of the mid-50s (which is when that session would almost have to be from), and a very few don't sound like McLean at all, notably an "English Country Garden" tag at the end where the change in tone and articulation really betray that this is somebody besides J-Mac, I think.

The distinguishing thing to this piece, besides the medley aspect, is that the rhythm section contains both piano & vibes. So if anybody can make a positive ID on a medley of "These Foolish Things/Embraceable You" from a session w/an alto/vibes/piano/bass/drums 5tet, I believe we'll have our man/men for "Wash Out".

[JSngry]

Years ago I had a Crown LP that featured Dave Brubeck and Cal Tjader, among others. The Brubeck track was entitled "At a Perfume Counter", and the Tjader was "Jazz Latino". Eventually I determined that the Brubeck & Tjader tracks were from Fantasy, and once I had the Fantasy albums, there was no need to keep the Crown record, so I can't confirm the catalog number. However, I can tell you with certainty that these tracks are not exclusive to Crown. "At a Perfume Counter" was actually "Crazy Chris", btw, and I see that Raben does show this as being on Crown 5056/5288 as well as the Fantasy issues. So I guess that the Crown LP I had years ago was the one that was offered on Ebay.

I've got a Crown Brubeck LP (Dave Brubeck Quartet Featuring Paul Desmond - Crown CLP-5470) that has the real "Perfume Counter" on one side (Side Two, actually), and three cuts on Side One - "Angel Eyes" by the George Nielsen Quartet (whoever he/they might be/have been), "Crazy Time" (as noted above aka "Crazy Chris", and "Purple Moon", which is actually "Sacre Blues" from a Paul Desmond quartet w/Don Elliot.

Those last two are Fantasy items, obviously, but who the hell is George Nielsen and his quartet? The altoist sounds like he(?)'s attempting to ape Desmond's phraseology, but with a tone that ain't even close, and intonation that is wobbly at best.

And no, I seriously don't think it's the McLean clone, unless there was a guy back then who was an "alto impressionist" of varying degrees of effectiveness.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Lord CDROM 5.0 says:

Gene Norman

poss. Willie Smith (as) poss. Tommy Todd (p) poss. Lionel Hampton (vib)

poss. same concert, Pasadena, August 4, 1947

These foolish things

Embraceable you

both on Crown CLP 5415

Bruyninckx CDROM entry is virtually identical.

Mike

[JSngry]

Thanks, Mike, but...

No way.

That's definitely NOT WIllie Smith, and that's definitely NOT a recording from that particular concert. I've got other material from it, and A) the recording quality is totally different and B) the audience is very noisy, applauding after every solo and for most every "hot lick". The mystery medley in question is definitely a 50s studio recording.

So - I'm as sure as sure can be that both Bruyninckx & Lord are dead wrong. You can make book on it.

Although, the suggestion of Hamp (who might be the vibist, even though there's no soloing, which would seem to rule him out, just because of the nature of the beast...) leads to a wild free-association guess that does fit audibly probable time (early-mid 1950s) and place (Los Angeles, approximately) - Anthony Ortega, maybe?

The mystery continues!

Edited April 28, 2005 by JSngry

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Excellent - *disproving* is as important as proving!

Mike

[JSngry]

Ok, here's another wild run...

Do any discographies list a Gerald Wiggins session that matches what is, IIRC, the one on Crown CLP-5415?

Here's why I ask -

That album is listed as being by Stan Getz, even though Getz is nowhere to be heard on the album (he is, however, seen on the cover photo). The tenorist on that quartet date, however, does seem to be attemtoing to mimic Getz somewhat, although, as is the case w/the altiost on the George Nielsen quartet (and are there any discographical entries for George Nielsen?), with pretty "off" intonation and a relatively plodding tone (again, similar to the Nielsen altoist), It doesn't really sound like Buddy Collette, although I suppose it could be his on a day where he felt very "casual".

So what we have is - A) a possible Getz imitator, B) a really poor Desmond imitator (gets the lines fairly right, but that's it), and C) a really good probable McLean imitator. What they all have in common is a heavy articulation, a tone that sounds like somebody overblowing their mouthpiece to varying degrees, and less than "perfect" intonation, none of which raise a red flag for the McLean-esque piece, but all of which do suggest that they might all be the same cat. Plus, all these qualities sound as if they might well be intentional, just by how they come out. Some things just don't happen by accident, at least not consistently, and to the same degree every time.

So, the next question is - was there any saxophonist around back then who had an "inside" reputation as a musical mimicker, either as an insiode joke or as a career strategy? If the Wiggins/Collete date pans out as legit, that might shoot the theory down pretty quickly, unless Collette did some mimicking work for grins and a few extra bucks. Doesn't seem too plausible to me, but stranger things have happened.

Maybe I'm crazy. But if I am, it's because I just woke up and haven't fully re-oxygenated my brain yet.

Edited April 28, 2005 by JSngry

[mikeweil]

Welcome to the Organissimo Institute of Jazz Studies - I really love this place here!

Edited April 28, 2005 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

Bruyninckx CDROM -

-Jazz at the Blackhawk- : Cal Tjader Quartet : Cal Tjader (vib) Vince Guaraldi (p) Gene Wright (b) Al Torres (d)

San Francisco, CA., January 20, 1957

Land's end Fantasy 3241

I've never been in love before -

Lover come back to me (*) -

Thinking of you, MJQ (*) -

Blues in the night (*) -

Bill B. -

I'll remember April -

Two for blues suite -

When the sun comes out -

Jazz latino (+) Crown CLP5288

Note : Entire session except (+) on Fantasy 8096, OJC 436, CD436-2. (*) These titles on Jazztone J1277,

see also May 24, 1956 for more titles.

and

Cal Tjader Quartet : Cal Tjader (vib) Vince Guaraldi (p) Dean Reilly (b) Bobby White (d)

San Francisco, CA., November 5, 1957

Journey's end Crown CLP5056, Modern MST827

Note : Crown CLP5056 entitled "Jazz confidential".

Lord CDROM 5.0

Jazz at the Blackhawk: Cal Tjader Quartet:

Cal Tjader (vib) Vince Guaraldi (p) Gene Wright (b) Al Torres (d)

San Francisco, CA, January 20, 1957

    Land's end    Fantasy 3241, OJC 436, OJC CD436-2 [CD]

    I've never been in love before          -        -        -

    Lover come back to me (*)          -        -        -

    Thinking of you, MJQ (*)          -        -        -

    Blues in the night (*)          -        -        -

    Bill B.          -        -        -

    I'll remember April          -        -        -

    Two for blues suite          -        -        -

    When the sun comes out          -        -        -

    Jazz latino    Crown CLP5288

Note: Fantasy 3241(mono) = 8096(stereo).

(*) These 3 titles also on Jazztone J1277 titled "Delightfully light".

and

Cal Tjader Quartet:

Cal Tjader (vib) Vince Guaraldi (p) Dean Reilly (b) Bobby White (d)

San Francisco, CA, November 5, 1957

    Journey's end    Crown CLP5056, Modern MST827

Mike

Thanks a lot, Mike, but I can't help but wondering where both got this exact date for "Journey's End" (which is not identical, as I said, to any other Tjader quartet recording) - doesn't Bruyninckx place "Dues Blues" from a Brew Moore Fantasy LP at that same session?

Edited April 28, 2005 by mikeweil

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Watch this:

Bruyninckx CDROM -

-Brew Moore- : Brew Moore Quintet : Brew Moore, Harold Wylie (ts) John Marabuto (p) John Mosher (b) John Markham (d)

San Francisco, Ca., November 5, 1957

Edison's lamp Fantasy 3264

Nancy with the laughin' face -

Rhode Island Red -

Marna moves -

Pat's batch -

Note : Entire session also on Fantasy (Jap)VIJ-4044 and OJC 049.

Brew Moore (ts) Cal Tjader (vib) Vince Guaraldi (p) Dean Reilly (b) Bobby White (d)

University College of Los Angeles, Los Angeles, January 1958

Dues blues Fantasy 3264, (Jap)VIJ-4044, OJC 049

and from Lord CDROM 5.0 -

Brew Moore: Brew Moore Quintet:

Brew Moore, Harold Wylie (ts) John Marabuto (p) John Mosher (b) John Markham (d)

San Francisco, CA, November 5, 1957

Edison's lamp Fantasy 3264, OJC 049

Nancy - -

Rhode Island Red - -

Marna moves - -

Pat's batch - -

Brew Moore (ts) Cal Tjader (vib) Vince Guaraldi (p) Dean Reilly (b) Cal Tjader (vib)

University College of Los Angeles, Los Angeles, January, 1958

Dues blues Fantasy 3264, OJC 049

Note: All titles from Fantasy 3264 also on Fantasy (Jap)VIJ-4044.

The date of November 5, 1957 for the Moore goes back at least as far as the original Bruyninckx 50YORJ - can't check Jepsen for this right now. 50YORJ gives "1957-58" as the date for Dues Blues (and location as San Francisco).

Now, what needs to be done is some periodical research to determine exact dates and locations of those California gigs.

Mike

[Bill Fenohr]

Hey Jim,

As to the mysterious reed man. Do you think these might be the lost recordings of the infamous Arr Niehaus?

[JSngry]

As good a guess as any!

[mikeweil]

......

Brew Moore (ts) Cal Tjader (vib) Vince Guaraldi (p) Dean Reilly (b) Cal Tjader (vib)

University College of Los Angeles, Los Angeles, January, 1958

Dues blues Fantasy 3264, OJC 049

.......

The date of November 5, 1957 for the Moore goes back at least as far as the original Bruyninckx 50YORJ - can't check Jepsen for this right now. 50YORJ gives "1957-58" as the date for Dues Blues (and location as San Francisco).

Now, what needs to be done is some periodical research to determine exact dates and locations of those California gigs.

Mike

I'm with you here - unfortunately I neither have the time nor the facilities to do so. I will have to make my way to the Darmstadt Jazz Institute this summer ... Until then, I'll try to locate a copy of the Brew Moore disco some Dane has written a while ago.

The location for Dues Blues is mentioned in the LP liner notes, but not the date. Trombonist Bob Collins is mentioned as well to have participated. That rhythm section personnel (and the sound) matches that of Tjader's Journey's End on the Jazz Confidential LP - maybe they are from the same concert?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Trying to keep info together in one place:

Names & Numbers #5 (September 1986) has two pages discussing Crown 5009. There are some date discrepancies with Jack Woker's list from rmb, also some proposed soloists.

N&N #1 (April 1985) has info on Maxwell Davis and Crown.

I have also found Q & A on Crown stuff in Jazz Journal International: July 1983, April 1984, and January & March & June 1991. There are probably others too.

Mike

[JSngry]

Could you be so kind as to post a summation?

Also, I'm certainly familiar w/JJI, but what is/was Names & Numbers?

[mikeweil]

Getting back to the Tjader track once more: I CDRed the Bew Moore LP together with the single track from the Crown LP, re-sequenced to have Dues Blues and Journey's End at the end, and I now doubt these two tracks are from the same session. Sound and ambience is totally different, there is no applause on Journey's End, where the audience starts frenetic applause before the last note has vanished on Dues Blues. The group on Journey's End plays much more subdued, and the vibes sound is different.

I suspect this rather comes from one of the Tjader quartet studio dates - Crown or Jazztone reissued tracks from these on other LPs, often re-titled - so far I couldn't identify this with any track from the Fantasy LPs/CDs.

I still wonder where the standard discographers got that date, and why they link Journey's End to that January 1958 concert - I guess they never listened to that track.