Paul Motian interview, discusses his drumming

[Guy Berger]

I found this really interesting Paul Motian interview. He discusses his drumming on three Keith Jarrett recordings (including "Rotation" and "Shades of Jazz"), one Bill Evans recording, and two recordings of his own as a leader.

(ED: For some reason I put the markers for Italics instead of putting the link in there. For a second I couldn't understand why Steve was so puzzled! Corrected now.)

Excerpt:

"Shades of Jazz" from album "Shades" (1975)

Chuck:  This is a rare example of the Keith Jarrett Quartet playing a swing tune, but compared to how most people play swing, it's very "out."

Paul:  That's happenin' because of how we're playing, we're playing it from what Dewey's playing. We start out swing time, and then the music starts to get apart from the swing time and goes in other directions, and then, as far as I'm concerned, just falls apart. And then so we just start playing free.

Chuck:  Now when you say "just falls apart" do you mean that bad, or neutral?

Paul:  I mean bad! It's like we're playing and we're trying to make music from what's happening. And what's happening for me is not really happening, so you just try to make music out of it.

Chuck:  Really? That's shocking to me that you'd say that.

Paul:  That's not planned. It's not intentional. You're playing from what your hearing and what's going on. Dewey's playing, we're playing 4/4 time, and then Dewey changes his phrasing where the time gets turned around. So then we're playing the time turned around. And then it's back on to the time. And then it's not happening, so then you break up the time. I mean, for me, it wasn't happening like we started out, and the time started to break up. So I started breaking up the time. It's like accidental, it's not planned.

Chuck:  But to me it sounds musically positive, it sounds great.

Paul:  Sure.

Chuck:  But you said it's bad, it's falling apart.

Paul:  Yeah.

Chuck:  How? That seems so amazing to me.

Paul:  Well, I don't know man.

Chuck:  You would rather that didn't happen.

Paul:  Yeah.

Chuck:  Wow, this is hot stuff! This is like Mike Wallace and Sixty Minutes now!

Paul:  (laughs)

Guy

Edited April 16, 2005 by Guy Berger

[SEK]

I imagine that happens more than we might suspect on releases as well as on stuff "left on the cutting room floor" (to use a movie metaphor). Where's the interview from?

[JPF]

For the longest time, Paul Motian's drumming has driven me crazy. I feel that his playing is often disruptive and contributes nothing to the performance. I thought his playing ruined the recent Lovano, Hank Jones record. (Yes, I know many people love him, but please don't send in a flood of posts about what a wonderful drummer he is. Instead, comment on the quote below).

I've always felt he played just for himself and didn't care about supporting the other musicians in the group. Then I read this quote from the interview cited above:

Chuck:

On ballads most drummers just play quarter notes on the snare drum and two and four on the hi-hat. You introduced a whole new conception to ballads where you can make as much music as Bill Evans is making on the piano and Scott LaFaro is making on the bass…

Paul:

Well, that's because I didn't care. I was playing for myself, also playing for Bill and for Scott or whatever the situation is, but I'm being very selfish in playing what I want to play and what I want to hear. Whereas the drummers you're talking about, they're accompanying the pianist or soloist or whoever, they're trying to lay down a foundation for that person to play on top of, so that that person can play space or go around the meter or whatever. If the drummer's not playing the 4/4, it's harder on the main voice to do what he's doing. And they're not going to stand for a drummer to play the way I'm playing. When I was doing that, I was being very selfish and feeling that I don't have to give them support, I'm playing  music that I'm hearing, you know?

Amazing! The man makes my point exactly. He says that he plays what he wants to play and to hell with everybody else, apparently. Am I the only one who thinks this concept is just insane?

(FWIW, I'm a former drummer).

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I think the point was that it wasn't about accompanying or supporting, rather that the roles were equal and no one was subordinate.

Mike

[mikeweil]

Not insane - he just gives in what other drummers do not. If a drummer overplays, but stays in time, we just don't notice as much. I think most drummers are selfish and play too much instead of intelligently and carefully selecting their strokes. But if they stay in time we don't find it as distrubing. Motian chooses to play in his own phrasing - three-way improvisation, that's what the Bill Evans trio with him and Scott LaFaro did. In his way, he was as revolutionary as Elvin or Sunny Murray or Tony Williams. I understand it sounds edgier than those.

As Ralph Peterson once stated in a down beat Blindfold Test: "Motian is always interesting, although his swing is not to my taste."

I second that remark.

[JPF]

I think the point was that it wasn't about accompanying or supporting, rather that the roles were equal and no one was subordinate.

Mike

But why isn't it about accompanying or supporting? If you don't want to do those things, maybe you should have chosen another instrument. The drums are not there to compete with the other musicians, to say "look at me, look at me." If you want to call attention to yourself, play tastefully and then take a really good solo (Lewis Nash, anyone?).

I think you're being much too kind to him.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

You are dealing with your own preconceptions about what a drummer "should" do. Motian and the Evans trio were shattering those preconceptions (and beautifully so, in my opinion).

It's *your* opinion that "the drums are not there to compete with the other musicians" - that particular opinion is certainly based in pre-Motian facts: earlier drummers did stay out of the way of the others. We can say the same with LaFaro - the bassist "should" play straight quarter notes, hit the root of the chord on beat one, etc. But I say thank goodness that LaFaro took the creative chance to try playing simultaneous melodies with the soloist, to let the timekeeping be implied rather than stated outright. Yes, rebellious! Revolutionary! Wonderful!

Someone could just as easily say that Max Roach or Art Blakey wasn't doing what the drummer "should" have done. Experimentation leads to new discoveries. Playing it safe leads to stagnant same-ness. If you don't like the Evans/LaFaro/Motian trio, that's your choice - there are certainly thousands of other more conventional trios that would suit you better.

Mike

[Guy Berger]

Like Mike I'm puzzled by JPF's complaints, which are identical to those levelled at, say, Dizzy Gillespie or Charlie Parker in the 40s. Who determines what an instrument should or shouldn't sound like? As long as Motian does what he likes and what the people around him like, what's the problem? As a bonus the music sounds great!

Guy

[JPF]

It's *your* opinion that "the drums are not there to compete with the other musicians" - that particular opinion is certainly based in pre-Motian facts: earlier drummers did stay out of the way of the others.

Yes, my opinion, and millions of other people's, too. Earlier drummers did that, and most of today's drummers do, too.

We can say the same with LaFaro - the bassist "should" play straight quarter notes, hit the root of the chord on beat one, etc. But I say thank goodness that LaFaro took the creative chance to try playing simultaneous melodies with the soloist, to let the timekeeping be implied rather than stated outright. Yes, rebellious! Revolutionary! Wonderful!

I admire the way Scott opened up bass playing - never said otherwise.

Someone could just as easily say that Max Roach or Art Blakey wasn't doing what the drummer "should" have done.

I suppose someone could - I never did.

Experimentation leads to new discoveries.

It sometimes leads to new discoveries, and sometimes leads to chaos.

If you don't like the Evans/LaFaro/Motian trio, that's your choice - there are certainly thousands of other more conventional trios that would suit you better.

Once again, I never said I didn't like that trio; I own those records, enjoy them, and got them long before you ever did, I'll wager. He (Motian) was the one using that group as an example. I'm talking about his attitude (which apparently began at that time) of "playing for himself" and "being very selfish" (his quotes). Not, IMO, the way to play jazz, unless you play alone.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

The fact that many of today's drummers still play in the style that was developed by drummers in the 1930s - to me, that says that they are not too interested in advancing things. Sure, it's nice, but there is more to the world of the rhythm section than just keeping time.

If you can appreciate LaFaro's revolution, can't you recognize that Motian is the equivalent for the drums?

Maybe it's not a piano solo that is supposed be accompanied by drums. Maybe it's a drum solo that is accompanied by piano..........

Or maybe it's neither.

Mike

[AllenLowe]

I like many things about Motian - I particulary like that he makes himself an equal voice without bashing - I loved the group with him, Lovano, and Frisell - truly inter-active.

[JPF]

The fact that many of today's drummers still play in the style that was developed by drummers in the 1930s - to me, that says that they are not too interested in advancing things. Sure, it's nice, but there is more to the world of the rhythm section than just keeping time.

What does the fact that the vast majority of drummers today play in a highly evolved, but still swinging, version of the style first developed in the '30s tell you? That they're all wrong and PM is right? You've made a common mistake - equating change with advancement. Often, change is just for the sake of being different and advances nothing.

If you can appreciate LaFaro's revolution, can't you recognize that Motian is the equivalent for the drums?

I could if it were true.

[AllenLowe]

actually I disagree - sometimes change for the sake of change is just what an art form needs -

[Lazaro Vega]

Motian advanced texture and color as primary contributions to the ensemble from the drums, and by doing so helped produce a more fluid, interactive, orchestral ensemble sound for the trio, concepts he's put forth in the rhythm sections of countless bands by now, including his Electric Bebop Band and the trio with Frisell and Lovano. The degree to which that can be counted as an advancement must be seen within the general changes jazz was undergoing in the late 50's early 60's as more traditional models for jazz performance were being scrutinized by even the leading figures in the music, not just the dedicated fringe. That Motian has all but flourished into his 70's speaks to his contribution's importance. If this were not an advancement he would have fallen off the scene from indifference.

[AllenLowe]

- and sometimes posting just for the sake of posting is a good thing -

[Guy Berger]

Once again, I never said I didn't like that trio; I own those records, enjoy them, and got them long before you ever did, I'll wager. He (Motian) was the one using that group as an example. I'm talking about his attitude (which apparently began at that time) of "playing for himself" and "being very selfish" (his quotes). Not, IMO, the way to play jazz, unless you play alone.

And yet musicians like Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett, Charlie Haden, Bill Frisell, Joe Lovano and many others have gone out of their way to play with him. Evidently they disagree with you about the proper "way to play jazz".

Your assumption throughout this thread has been that there's a proper way to play jazz drums and hence Paul Motian fails as a jazz drummer. I'd say instead that your assumption has failed and that it's time to re-examine it.

For what it's worth, the whole "change for the sake of change" argument is a red herring -- Motian's innovations are for the sake of the music, and it's goooooood.

Guy

Edited April 27, 2005 by Guy Berger

[7/4]

I like many things about Motian - I particulary like that he makes himself an equal voice without bashing - I loved the group with him, Lovano, and Frisell - truly inter-active.

I love this group, I've been rounding out my Trio collection in recent weeks.

[AllenLowe]

mmmmmm...herring........

[7/4]

mmmmmm...beer........

[mikeweil]

What does the fact that the vast majority of drummers today play in a highly evolved, but still swinging, version of the style first developed in the '30s tell you? That they're all wrong and PM is right?

That the majority does so is not an argument that this is the better way to do it - it is only the more common way. There are many more ways to phrase things than by swinging - but these are not as "groovy" and thus not as popular or as accessible.

Fritz Hauser played very sparingly and "unswinging" in Franz Koglmann's group (on HartArt) and reveived similar criticism. But Koglmann thinks this concept of conventional swinging is out of date.

It is your listening habits that make you think a drummer is an accompanist. Can you imagine a pianist accompanying a drummer? Just a solo for the drummer - that's highly conservative.

[Lazaro Vega]

So Sonny Greer didn't play proper swing drum styles against the pulse of Chick Webb or the fluidity of Jo Jones, but his mastery of the colors a percussionist could provide an ensemble was music to Ellington (even though he might have put up "Harlem Air Shaft" to give Greer a run at Jones). Would one condescend to, "Well, we all know Greer was at best a pit band drummer?" And yet he doesn't fit the sort of narrative attempting imposition of propriety for jazz as much as he does fit soley (soul-ly) Ellington's music. Hey, how does one dance to "Creole Love Call"? Duke wasn't such a great dance band leader when he made me pick up a fan: I want to foxtrot! Let these absurdities be words from a Dead Gator, a dicty one, but still cold in hand.

[GregK]

I'll take Motian's playing anyday. Exactly the type of player that is always interesting

[randissimo]

He's definately a different kind of drummer.. I've seen Paul M play twice now.. Once with Dewey Redman and another time with Joachim Kuhn & John Abercrombie in Tubingen, Germany. Though not technically a chops monster, Motian plays with an interesting and profound sense of rhythm, time, phrasing, dynamics, colors, and composition.

The strangest I've ever heard Paul Motian play was a video I saw of a festival hit he played with Gonzalo Rubacalba.. They played right at the edge of lunacy!

Edited April 28, 2005 by randissimo

[Alon Marcus]

"Portrait in Jazz" is one of my all time favorite albums and I like Paul's EBBB projects and the trios he had with Charlie Haden + Gery Allen/Rubalcaba. You can guess on whose side I am in the argument.

Still there is a point in what JFP was trying to say. Being active, important and revolutionary does not necessarily mean being selfish.

Paul is being aware of it and admits it, maybe this is the thing that makes him great.

Edited April 30, 2005 by Alon Marcus

[Guy Berger]

Paul is being aware of it and admitts it, maybe this is the thing that makes him great.

He might have been hamming it up a bit for the interview as well.

Guy