Oldest Average Age on a Jazz Record

[JSngry]

Ok, so I'm listening (again...) to the ONE MORE tribute to Thad Jones album, and it suddenly dawns on me how freakin' old everybody on it is. So I did the math to find the average age of the players, and here's how it breaks down:

Jimmy Owens - 60

Benny Golson - 75

Frank Wess - 82

James Moody - 79(*)

Bob Brookmeyer - 74

Hank Jones - 85.5

Richard Davis - 74(*)

Mickey Roker - 71.5

Ages were calculated elative to recording date (3/8-9/2004), and the people maked with an * had their ages rounded up due to being about a month or less away from their next birthday.

The average age of the participants on this album is 75. Now, I'm sure you can get a higher average age on some smaller group sides, but this is an octet, and that's a pretty old average age, I think, especially since Baby Owens is 11.5 years younger than the next oldest player on the date!

Used to be a time when a jazz musician who even made it to 70 was more often than not a beaten soul at worst, a relic of the distant past at best. But these guys are still going at it quite splendidly. A bit more mellowly than in days past, but the chops and imagination are still fully functional. The three tenorists in particular sound freakin' GREAT! And Richard Davis continues to dance gracefully and grooviliciously.

For the math/trivia/etc buffs out there, I ask - what, if any, records of a group of this approximate sixe have a higher average age?

[brownie]

You make me feel so young

[JSngry]

Hey, I'm about a third of the way through the last year of my first half-century, so I find this highly encouraging!

[king ubu]

Whoa, you guys must be old!

[Brownian Motion]

I used to have a Punch Miller record on which one of the cats--Chinee Foster if I remember correctly--was over 90. Don't know what the average was, though. Some of those Preservation Hall dates featured advanced players, chronologically--especially if you discounted the young white guy-enthusiast who played tuba. Of course I'm not sure whether they really count as jazz.

[Dan Gould]

Didn't the MJQ do an album "One for Connie" or something like that? Aside from Roker, I would think that would qualify as close to that average age.

[Christiern]

I used to have a Punch Miller record on which one of the cats--Chinee Foster if I remember correctly--was over 90. Don't know what the average was, though. Some of those Preservation Hall dates featured advanced players, chronologically--especially if you discounted the young white guy-enthusiast who played tuba. Of course I'm not sure whether they really count as jazz.

How can you not be sure that the New Orleans band count as jazz? What they play was jazz long before most of what you listen to today was even thought of.

If anything, the question might be, what subsequent music was/is jazz.

[J.A.W.]

I used to have a Punch Miller record on which one of the cats--Chinee Foster if I remember correctly--was over 90. Don't know what the average was, though. Some of those Preservation Hall dates  featured advanced players, chronologically--especially if you discounted the young white guy-enthusiast who played tuba.  Of course I'm not sure whether they really count as jazz.

How can you not be sure that the New Orleans band count as jazz? What they play was jazz long before most of what you listen to today was even thought of.

Exactly my point. BM, what made you think that it might not be jazz?

[Brownian Motion]

I used to have a Punch Miller record on which one of the cats--Chinee Foster if I remember correctly--was over 90. Don't know what the average was, though. Some of those Preservation Hall dates  featured advanced players, chronologically--especially if you discounted the young white guy-enthusiast who played tuba.  Of course I'm not sure whether they really count as jazz.

How can you not be sure that the New Orleans band count as jazz? What they play was jazz long before most of what you listen to today was even thought of.

If anything, the question might be, what subsequent music was/is jazz.

I learned about jazz listening to New Orleans Jazz--King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band, Hot Fives, Johnny Dodds, Kid Ory--that sort of thing. I also listened to what was being recorded at the time--some of the "Living Legends" stuff on Riverside, Paul Barbarin on Jazztone.

What I didn't listen to was the more commercial "dixieland" type of music that was peddled by groups like the Firehouse Five and The Dukes of Dixieland. I understood that this was a commercial variant of true jazz, and that the only people who liked it were clueless middle-aged white guys.

I went to Preservation Hall in 1977 and it was my worst encounter with live music. And talk about commercial: The experience was based on the notion that tourists should be hustled as quickly and efficiently as possible, and then dismissed to make room for the next pack of drunken sheep. I suppose Percy Humphrey was playing well for an old man back then, but when I talked to Danny Barker on the phone the next day he told me, in essence, to stay away from Preservation Hall if I wanted to hear real jazz. I think that was good advice.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Some of the same guys appeared on Lionel Hampton and the Golden Men of Jazz

rec. June 11-13, 1991 when the ages were:

Clark Terry (12/14/20) - 70

Sweets Edison (10/10/15) - 75

James Moody (3/26/25) - 66

Buddy Tate (2/22/13) - 78

Al Grey (6/6/25) - 66

Lionel Hampton (4/20/08) - 83

Hank Jones (7/31/18) - 72

Milt Hinton (6/23/10) 81 *

Grady Tate (1/14/32) 59 (!)

OK - average = 650/9 = 72.2 and this was nearly 15 years ago.

Mike

[Christiern]

I agree with your observations regarding Preservation Hall. It was (is?) a plantation run by the tuba player, Jaffe. When I was in New Orleans producing the Legends series for Riverside, there was no Preservation Hall. Jaffe (who died several years ago) once told me that he was inspired to start PH when he heard those recordings. I liked the idea, but it did not take long to find out that he was exploiting the musicians. He paid them very little and some did not at all share in the merchandising that bore their name.

I don't know it the place is still running, but, if so, I hope it is run with more consideration for the artists and the music.

I never cared for the Dukes of Dixieland, but I thought the Firehouse Five Plus Two was a good little band, and its leader, Ward Kimball was truly dedicated to the music of Oliver, Morton, and Louis. I guess you know that the band comprised Walt Disney animators, who played the music for love rather than profit.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I got a winner here!

Statesmen of Jazz, rec. 12/20/94

Benny Waters (1/23/02) - 91

Clark Terry (12/14/20) - 74

Joe Wilder (2/22/22) - 72

Al Grey (6/6/25) - 69

Buddy Tate (2/22/13) - 81

Jane Jarvis (11/?/15) - 79

Claude Williams (2/22/08) - 86

Milt Hinton (6/23/10) - 83

Panama Francis (12/21/18) - 76 *

Average = 711/9 = 79

I find it remarkable that three of these guys share the same birthday.

Mike

[AllenLowe]

How about this one (I have a recording date of 4/1/05):

Charlie Parker - 85 - sax

Buddy Bolden - 107 - castanets

Wynton Marsalis: 43 - trumpet,

Stephen Foster - 160 - piano

Stanley Crouch (drums, vocals) - 57

nice quartet recording, produced by Phil Schapp - should be out any day - recorded live during the recent Stephen Foster fest on WKCR -

[brownie]

Allen, I know that Bird lives but I was under the impression that Wynton Marsalis died several years ago...

You sure he is still alive?

[Ron S]

How about this one (I have a recording date of 4/1/05):

Charlie Parker - 85 - sax

Buddy Bolden - 107 - castanets

Wynton Marsalis: 43 - trumpet,

Stephen Foster - 160 - piano

Stanley Crouch (drums, vocals) - 57

nice quartet recording, produced by Phil Schapp - should be out any day - recorded live during the recent Stephen Foster fest on WKCR -

Wait a second--if Buddy Bolden really had played castanets in this session, wouldn't Wynton have, also???

[Joe M]

Benny Carter's Songbook session, with Benny, Joe Williams, Peggy Lee, Jon Hendricks, etc might be up there, but there's some younger people on that one too. Ellington's later big band sessions had to be up there as well.

[Adam]

This won't quite make the averages above, I think.

And I don't feel like really doing the math.

But what about the last Heath Brothers album? According to AMG, that's probably

Jazz Family (1998, Concord)

Percy Heath

Jimmy Heath

Tootie Heath

Jeb Patton

Joe Wilder

Tony Purrone

Earl Gardner

Tom Williams

[JSngry]

I got a winner here!

Statesmen of Jazz, rec. 12/20/94

Benny Waters (1/23/02) - 91

Clark Terry (12/14/20) - 74

Joe Wilder (2/22/22) - 72

Al Grey (6/6/25) - 69

Buddy Tate (2/22/13) - 81

Jane Jarvis (11/?/15) - 79

Claude Williams (2/22/08) - 86

Milt Hinton (6/23/10) - 83

Panama Francis (12/21/18) - 76 *

Average = 711/9 = 79

I find it remarkable that three of these guys share the same birthday.

Mike

This is the one to beat, I'd think!