Shelly Manne: Live at the Black Hawk

[mjzee]

Took your advice, and just downloaded all 5 volumes from eMusic.

[wolff]

One could spend hours analyzing this stuff, but I won't. It moves me and makes me feel good, and that's as much analysis as I need. Call me lazy, if you like.

I much prefer reading about the aestheic/spiritual impact of music. So, thank you for the post. Perfect analysis that indicates the artists achieved their goals with the music. Why spend hours analyzing when you could be listening. Which, by the way, is much more respectful to the artist and the music they dedicated their lives to.

Have had these LP's(along with At The Manne Hole) for years and consider them must owns.

Edited April 8, 2005 by wolff

[TedR]

Because these recordings have been around so long and never out of print I believe they've been taken for granted. If they were discovered today for the first time they just might be considered a "holy grail" of 50's small group jazz.

I especially like how Shelly Manne introduces his "west coast" band......all from east coast cities (Victor Feldman excluded of course).

[neveronfriday]

Thanks everyone for the input. Nice to see that there are many people (not only) here who love these recordings as much as I do.

@Chuck Nessa. I thought a lot about what you wrote, and of course you are right. You can easily find me raving about many of the other sessions I have in my collection, but what I was trying to get across was that, yes, these 5 CDs have become my very own holy grail of live recordings - amongst the many I have. I did not intend to say that they are, in regard to quality, above (or below) other recordings I have, but that over the many years I've had these and in my very own little world, they have become the best live recording because of the consistency across 5 discs.

On top of that, these recordings are good in any setting. Many of the others I have are not. They only offer themselves when I'm in the right mood or when I feel contemplative, for example.

[Ron S]

Thanks everyone for the input. Nice to see that there are many people (not only) here who love these recordings as much as I do.

@Chuck Nessa. I thought a lot about what you wrote, and of course you are right. You can easily find me raving about many of the other sessions I have in my collection, but what I was trying to get across was that, yes, these 5 CDs have become my very own holy grail of live recordings - amongst the many I have. I did not intend to say that they are, in regard to quality, above (or below) other recordings I have, but that over the many years I've had these and in my very own little world, they have become the best live recording because of the consistency across 5 discs.

On top of that, these recordings are good in any setting. Many of the others I have are not. They only offer themselves when I'm in the right mood or when I feel contemplative, for example.

Very well put, and virtually identical to my own feelings. B-)

[MartyJazz]

The combative tone this thread has taken is all too reminiscent of the old (but never dead, it seems) controversy regarding the significance of west coast jazz within the entire jazz realm, so to speak. This issue has never been resolved, proponents and detractors galore for the past half century. There are those like myself who don't consider ourselves as members of either camp but who do like these recordings (I've owned the Contemporary LPs for 35 years). Yet I would never think of putting them on a so-called desert island list, not that I've ever attempted to construct one. I guess I'm more in the Nessa camp then as far as attitude towards the music but for those who really extol the value of these recordings (and I'm not sure if Dan is one of them, he just seems to be bugged at anyone telling anybody not to rave excessively), hey, enjoy and celebrate as much as you want. That's what is one of the many joys of this board.

Edited April 8, 2005 by MartyJazz

[Dan Gould]

I guess I'm more in the Nessa camp then as far as attitude towards the music but for those who really extol the value of these recordings (and I'm not sure if Dan is one of them, he just seems to be bugged at anyone telling anybody not to rave excessively), hey, enjoy and celebrate as much as you want.

That was exactly the point I was making, Marty.

For the record, I think I own two of these, and I do enjoy them a lot but don't think of them as desert island material. That's just me and my 78.

[Ron S]

Obviously, if we all agreed on which recordings were "holy grails" or desert island material, there would only be about 7 posts on this Board (except of course for the 2 "General Discussion" forums). But if an absolutely objective, definitive, authoritative list IS ever developed, please let me know so that I can stop wasting time listening to other stuff.

[neveronfriday]

I much prefer reading about the aestheic/spiritual impact of music. So, thank you for the post. Perfect analysis that indicates the artists achieved their goals with the music. Why spend hours analyzing when you could be listening. Which, by the way, is much more respectful to the artist and the music they dedicated their lives to.

I'm more with Wolff. If I enjoy something, and I get something out of it for myself for my very own private reasons, I don't really need anyone to gratuitiously tell me that it's not really that good.

That reminds me of a Peanuts strip: Lucy waltzes into Linus's room and seeing that he's having a grand time playing with some toys, she runs over to him, grabs everything and leaves the room, uttering "Mine, mine, mine!" On a departing note, she tosses a rubber band over to Linus before slamming the door. In three panels we then see Linus really getting into the rubber band, having a great time ... and the door flies open, Lucy rushes in again, snatches the rubber band away and says "You weren't supposed to have that much fun".

There's too much of this in jazz criticism lately. Most of it is enlightening, but often it also seems to me that some of this is attempting to take the fun out of jazz. Maybe it's a generational issue?

P.S.: This is not aimed at Chuck Nessa's comment, which I thought was absolutely valid (and true). It's just a general observation.

[DMP]

I also think these albums are among the best, for the reasons listed at the beginning of this thread. On paper they might not look like anything out of the ordinary (and I passed them by for a long time on that assumption, that it was probably just another blowing session by a good group) - maybe that's one of the reasons the sessions really stand out. (And they are not necessarily as familiar as the live recordings of - say - Miles, or Coltrane, or Bill Evans, all artists that we have come to expect such a high level of musicianship, whatever the setting.)

Just came across the "Dowbeat" reviews of the first two. Volume 1 got 4 1/2 stars (it would have been higher, but the reviewer though Kamuca was having an off night) (?!?!!), and Volume 2 only got 2 1/2 stars (think it was John S. Wilson - he though the tunes went on way too long, to the point of being unbearable.)

[JPF]

And I thought I was the only one who treasured this set of recordings. Among other things, it turned me on to Victor Feldman when it first came out; he remains a criminally underrated pianist. Check out those block chords! And frankly, Shelly is also underrated, as famous as he is. He is in the absolute top rank of drummers ever.

I agree with everyone about the recording quality; it's outstanding. But am I the only one to have noticed that the channels are mixed in reverse? The recording has Joe Gordon and Victor Feldman on the left and Richie Kamuca on the right, but as you can see from the cover photo, the setup was the opposite. And from having gone to the Blackhawk (a lot!), I recall that the piano was usually over on the right, as the photo shows. And no, the photo is not reversed, otherwise Shelly would be playing lefthanded. I hope that if anyone ever reissues this as a box, that they correct that problem.

Thinking about the Blackhawk reminds me of Guido, the owner's, famous quote concerning the club's notoriously tacky condition: "I've worked and slaved to keep this place a sewer."

[Dan Gould]

Thinking about the Blackhawk reminds me of Guido, the owner's, famous quote concerning the club's notoriously tacky condition: "I've worked and slaved to keep this place a sewer."

[BruceH]

One other thing about Shelly Manne. I think he is the most tasteful drummer in the history of jazz. He can kick a band along like no one else, but he's never overbearing and he's smart enough to recognize the inherent musical limitations of the drum solo. You rarely hear him take a break any longer than a moment.

Yes indeed. Would that many more drummers had that kind of wisdom.

I'm also a big fan of this set. I've often thrown on one volume only to end up listening to all five CD's again. Great music.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Listening to, and greatly enjoying, 'More Swingin' Sounds' at the moment. I really like Charlie Mariano here - I don't really know anything else of his, I don't think.

[JPF]

Listening to, and greatly enjoying, 'More Swingin' Sounds' at the moment. I really like Charlie Mariano here - I don't really know anything else of his, I don't think.

He's also featured on Shelly's "Swinging Sounds, Vol. 4," (same group as "More Swinging Sounds"), Shelly's "The Gambit", and is one of the main soloists on Mingus's "Black Saint And The Sinner Lady."

Another extremely underrated player.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Thanks for the info! I might pick up a couple of those other Mannes. I'd forgotten about the Mingus (shame on me!), which I have.

[gdogus]

Now playing...

Shelly Manne and His Men - At the Blackhawk, Volume 2 (Contamporary/OJC, 1959)

I have all five volumes of the Blackhawk set, and also really like the two-volume 1961 set from Shelly's Manne Hole:

Edited May 14, 2005 by gdogus

[mikeweil]

The credits for the excellent audio quality of these recordings go to Roy DuNann and Howard Holzer, the two great Hollywood engineers responsible for almost all Contemporary sessions. The fine sound they captured is hard to improve upon even today, I rank them at the very top of jazz recording engineers in the 1950's.

[nmorin]

A silly quesiton, maybe, but does anyone know the actual recording/performance order of the tunes on the five CDs?

[Alexander]

I've had the first volume for some time and have always enjoyed it. Sigh...I guess I'm gonna have to go find the other four...damn you all!

[J.A.W.]

The credits for the excellent audio quality of these recordings go to Roy DuNann and Howard Holzer, the two great Hollywood engineers responsible for almost all Contemporary sessions. The fine sound they captured is hard to improve upon even today, I rank them at the very top of jazz recording engineers in the 1950's.

←

[BruceH]

I've had the first volume for some time and have always enjoyed it.  Sigh...I guess I'm gonna have to go find the other four...damn you all!

←

Sorry.

[brownie]

Up!

Because all the music that was released on the five volumes 'Live at the Black Hawk' are being reissued on the American Jazz Classics ( from Spain!?!) label, a 4CD box.

Something that Fantasy/Concord should have done years ago.

Shelly Manne and his men recorded this in September 1959, 50 years ago.

EU fans will be happy to get the box . Non-EU fans will feel guilty if they ever purchase it

[king ubu]

It would be nice if they'd bring back some rarer stuff, wouldn't it? These can be found cheaply on Amazon Marketplace...

[brownie]

Grumble! Grumble!

You sound like a Frenchman by now!

Apologize for not having mentioned the non-EU Swiss