Che banned?

[rostasi]

I'd like to say that I didn't inhale...

...but I'd be lying...

[A Lark Ascending]

When 'Che' first arrived I did not recognise him for the first couple of weeks. I seem to recall sticking up for him indirectly in one of my tiresome tirades against group hugs. I assumed he was actually some hapless teenager who needed to be treated gently.

Then the parallels began to appear - the Finland obsession, rugby etc. He seemed to go out of his way to avoid provoking on the issue that got him removed from AAJ; and I was happy to respond to some of his posts which dealt with European/UK jazz. I'd assumed he'd learned his lesson.

However, I began to get a bit freaked by his over-familiarity - the above mentioned occasion when he started welcoming people to the board a few weeks in did strike me as a bit strange.

You only saw part of him here - to be honest his musical posts were rather more thoughtful at AAJ. Here that never seemed to amount to more than namechecking the latest person he'd read about in Jazzwise.

I don't think he's a bad guy. But he does seem very, very thick skinned. We all say daft things, get into rows we later regret; and then either apologise or lie low for a while. 'Che's' response was always to fight back harder. I tried once at AAJ to suggest going a bit easier in the US election dispute; I was categorically told that I was trying to censor him!

Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about an invasion from Nova Scotia. Seems unlikely. I'm the one who really has to worry. He claimed to have booked into some of the Cheltenham Jazz Festival shows I'm also at.

A false beard and moustache will be needed, I think. Goatee, of course. So I can blend in well.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Bev Stapleton

[ghost of miles]

Seriously though, I thought Che insinuated himself on the board rather abruptly.  Several people, myself included, counseled him as to how he might go about integrating himself more smoothly and, by and large, I thought he had gotten better.  Guess you never really know, though.  He might have seen his departure as some sort of act of self sacrifice or martyrdom, who knows.

I did the same thing, Dave. I'll echo what I said in another thread: I think it's good that Jim and Use3D did not ban somebody simply b/c he annoyed some longtime posters. I hope his voluntary departure enables us to move on... whatever errors he made seem to me mightily trumped by the abusive--yes, abusive--invective that was hurled at him constantly, often on a hit-and-run basis in threads that had nothing to do with the comments the poster made. I know I'm in the minority on this issue, but I've spent a lot of time on jazz boards in the past five years, and I don't think I've ever seen somebody treated as badly as Che was here.

Edited April 2, 2005 by ghost of miles

[Jazzmoose]

Perhaps he was treated badly; I certainly wasn't very friendly to him. But when someone pisses in my cornflakes, I don't feel that compelled to offer them a cup of coffee.

[Free For All]

I've spent a lot of time on jazz boards in the past five years, and I don't think I've ever seen somebody treated as badly as Che was here.

There were a few times I almost felt some sympathy for che, but then he'd turn around and stick his cyber-foot in his cyber-mouth and my feelings would go back to .

As times (early on) he seemed naive and *innocent*, but soon he became IMHO consciously manipulative and intentionally tried to light some fires, and to me it seemed he was enjoying the results.

Among the flames directed at him several people tried very sincerely to be calmly constructively critical and helpful (and I commend them for that), but he seemed to want none of it. I'm glad he left voluntarily, although it might have been a "quit or be fired" decision.

I don't like to see people treated badly either, but I don't feel much sympathy now.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Free For All

[AfricaBrass]

This whole episode really made me question whether or not we should have Politics around here. I think if we go into that place we need to be completely willing to be offended. I like being able to talk about anything, but I don't like what has gone done since Che's arrival.

I also question if the use of political avatars is something that should be allowed. Che accused me of censorship when I suggested he change his avatar to a less offensive one. Maybe we should make sure that the rule is that politics stay in Politics.

I do give kudos to Berigan, Weizen, and those on the right who take much of the (hopefully) gentle abuse that's heaped on them.

I tried my best to be a peacemaker. Now I feel a little stupid for bothering in the first place. My days on the new member are welcome wagon are over for now.

[ghost of miles]

Perhaps he was treated badly; I certainly wasn't very friendly to him. But when someone pisses in my cornflakes, I don't feel that compelled to offer them a cup of coffee.

Well, he pissed in my cornflakes too, so to speak, when he first came here. I had a pretty pointed exchange with him in some thread--I certainly understand the basis for his "annoying" rep. If I thought that was all there was to him I wouldn't have been as bothered as I was by the later attacks on him. Nobody has a right to be liked, or even to necessarily be treated in a friendly manner. I was just surprised and stung by the ugliness that came out in responses to him.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

Took a lot of Googling to sleuth him(sic) out but now SoulStation1 can finally rent out that signature space.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Man with the Golden Arm

[randissimo]

Perhaps he was treated badly; I certainly wasn't very friendly to him.  But when someone pisses in my cornflakes, I don't feel that compelled to offer them a cup of coffee.

Well, he pissed in my cornflakes too, so to speak, when he first came here. I had a pretty pointed exchange with him in some thread--I certainly understand the basis for his "annoying" rep. If I thought that was all there was to him I wouldn't have been as bothered as I was by the later attacks on him. Nobody has a right to be liked, or even to necessarily be treated in a friendly manner. I was just surprised and stung by the ugliness that came out in responses to him.

Personally, I never had any problems with che, or even found che that offensive really.. I even went back and read some of his posts in his profile. Maybe I didn't go deep enough into his posts... Nobody yet even comes close to Wingy's caustic ramblings..

[ghost of miles]

Nobody yet even comes close to Wingy's caustic ramblings..

I think you've found the grounds for a consensus, Randy!

[maren]

Can we let this go, please?

Che didn't use "curse words" but, in my book, blithely parroting cant about a certain ethnic-religious group "ruling the world by proxy" is also ugly. Members of that group -- maybe particularly those on "the left" who've put their necks on the line and devoted much of their lives to bridgebuilding efforts and to thoughtfully distinguishing criticism of Israel from antisemitism -- may have felt personally threatened themselves.

Che never responded to the content of a lengthy PM I sent him two weeks ago that I thought could have been a bridge-builder, a face-saver, an opportunity to correct an impression of him as antisemitic if it had been, in fact, a mistaken impression.

And I'm just guessing that Ubu's attempted PM outreach to Che was similarly fruitless...

Look, he joined on February 16th, and here's how he talked to people on February 16th!

A rather simplistic view of things!

And sadly I have met 'you' before.

I am curious as to how you have nanaged to post so many posts? And still have said so little?

Of course we could chat about nothing and you guys can boost your post stats!!

Wow!

You have posted so many posts! You must be used to people listening to you?

Do you already know the answer? 

Man you have posted so many!

Well lets just say I have an opinion.

[tonym]

Well Hi.

I'm not that sick that he's gone FWIW. He told me to "Get a life in one thread, to a perfectly innoccuous question. Then proceeded to answer my question in his next post.

I mean, how many times can you respond to your own thread?

I was finding myself avoiding any thread he'd started.

[JSngry]

I was just surprised and stung by the ugliness that came out in responses to him.

Don't know about anybody else, but my Spider Sense went all abuzz with his arrival the way that it seldom does, even with club owners and junkies.

As far as never seeing anybody treated that badly, hey, ask yourself this - did he ever attempt to recognize how and why he was pissing so many people off? Not that I saw. His best response to the Zionism=Nazism buisness was, iirc, "I'm not anti-Semitic", as well as Fallback Line #15 (if there were even that many in the rep...), "You don't know me". Well, la-di-fukkin'-dah, that ain't gonna get it.

Greg I saw as a case of a good guy buried inside a too-thick-for-his-own-good protective shell. DEEP was just a crazy road dog who was at once too hip and too crude for the room. Aric, well, Aric is Aric. Love him in spite of his obvious problems, but he made his own bed. Again.

But che? Nah man, that guy virtually exuded problematic from Day One, and didn't do one damn thing to prove otherwise. If ever I've seen a narcisistic, self-fulfilling prophecy of doom, it was him. Like I said, the Spider Sense went off almost immediately, and it never really stopped buzzing. People told him over and over why he was receiving the reception he was getting, both publicly, and, I assume, in PMs. I told him that if he really wanted to stick around that he would just have to tough it out - acknowledge his miscalculations and his offensive (intentional or otherwise) beginings, let time heal the wounds, and that eventually his good intentions, if he really had them, would become apparent to most over time.

That did not happen. Whose fault is that?

[ghost of miles]

>> DEEP was just a crazy road dog who was at once too hip and too crude for the room. Aric, well, Aric is Aric.<<

Whatever redeeming qualities these guys had, they posted gay-baiting, racist things that were really awful.

>> I told him that if he really wanted to stick around that he would just have to tough it out - acknowledge his miscalculations and his offensive (intentional or otherwise) beginings, let time heal the wounds, and that eventually his good intentions, if he really had them, would become apparent to most over time. <<

I told him the same thing in my PM exchanges. Almost exactly.

>>That did not happen. Whose fault is that?<<

He left of his own volition, which is possibly the best outcome for all involved. Again, no one has a right to be liked, to be treated in a warm manner, etc. Given that he was being called a motherfucker or its equivalent a great deal of the time, though... do you really think that's cool? I don't. And I tend to think of this as a pretty cool place.

[Guest Chaney]

cancer

1. Any of various malignant neoplasms characterized by the proliferation of anaplastic cells that tend to invade surrounding tissue and metastasize to new body sites.

2. The pathological condition characterized by such growths.

3. A pernicious, spreading evil: A cancer of bigotry spread through the community.

infest

1. To inhabit or overrun in numbers or quantities large enough to be harmful, threatening, or obnoxious: rats infesting the sewers; streets that were infested with drugs.

2. To live as a parasite in or on: livestock that were infested with tapeworms.

I don't know if che could be considered evil but his presence certainly amounted to an infestation.

Thank gOd he gave Jim A. an easy out with his asking to be axed. The thought of his infesting this board really rankled.

What should we JCers know about Che? He has jumped onto our ship now.

I'm sorry he's joined your board. I see that chuckyd4 is hounding che on every post. Normally I'd consider that an unwise move but in this case...

My guess is that the JC crowd will eventually eat him alive.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Chaney

[JSngry]

>> DEEP was just a crazy road dog who was at once too hip and too crude for the room. Aric, well, Aric is Aric.<<

Whatever redeeming qualities these guys had, they posted gay-baiting, racist things that were really awful. 

Awful, yes, but they also had a "jazz thing" (DEEP by experience, Aric by intuition) that was undeniable. And on a primarily jazz board, that's gotta count for something.

Their bad qualities went on one side of the scale, the good on the other, and determining the relative balance was then up to individual. Or, as it turned out, the moderators.

No real tears here about the decisions.

Edited April 2, 2005 by JSngry

[JSngry]

>>That did not happen. Whose fault is that?<<

He left of his own volition, which is possibly the best outcome for all involved. Again, no one has a right to be liked, to be treated in a warm manner, etc. Given that he was being called a motherfucker or its equivalent a great deal of the time, though... do you really think that's cool? I don't. And I tend to think of this as a pretty cool place.

I don't necessarily think it's "cool" either, but again I ask - what did he ever do to calm the storm? It seemed to me that he came into this joint looking for a fight, and then when he found one, he whined about getting it. More than one person referred to him as "passive-agressive", and afaic, that's exactly what his behavior here was. A "victim" of his own making, and really - how much of a victim is that?

He reaped what he had sown. Again, no tears.

[Guest Chaney]

ghost: You know something's wrong when king ubu is called out, especially by a newbie. And when the normally quiet folks are getting pissed and posting rants, well... Look at the folks che managed to piss off. NOT the usual bunch of hot heads, wouldn't you say?

[couw]

let time heal the wounds

some wounds are too deep. The reaction of this board and the moderators to che's blatant anti-semitism has been a pretty disgusting ride for me. Next time a member posts something that utterly crude, ban his ass right away, please. No excuses and no nanny-ing. There should never be tolerance for this kind of thing. Never.

I could have started a crusade, and although I posted some real nasty things in reply (my apologies if I offended others by that), I rather took a back seat for a while. That his crap remained online to me was a stain on the board and on all of us. I have not bothered to have his shit removed as I know others were doing their part to achieve that. Many mails and PMs were exchanged.

Freedom of speech is a nice thing, but in my view it should not be put above a basic respect for others. Once you cross that line, your ass is free to receive some leather. Maybe living in an area where some real scary marches take place every once in a while has made me too alert and allergic to this kind of thing. But it has also taught me hate. And hate is a bad motherfucker and it makes me yell and say and post things that do not fit me at all.

I admit I was on the guy's case and I admit my senses were sharpened and more easily stung by his annoying posting habits. Once again I apologise if I have offended.

My apologies in particular to Jim for quoting his post to make my point.

[Free For All]

I'm sorry he's joined your board.  I see that chuckyd4 is hounding che on every post.  Normally I'd consider that an unwise move but in this case...

IMHO that's really not necessary- it just makes chuckyd4 (or others) look bad.

My guess is that the JC crowd will eventually eat him alive.

No doubt about that, although I think the community there should be able to observe che w/o a preconception.

Judging from his first few posts (and the subsequent reponses of those who don't yet know him) I think che is already heading down the same path and will probably end up leaving (or being kicked out of) there as well.

No need for us to try and further influence what seems to be already inevitable.

I'm happy he's gone, but IMHO it's not cool to follow him around and harrass him further. Let someone else have a turn.

[AfricaBrass]

some wounds are too deep. The reaction of this board and the moderators to che's blatant anti-semitism has been a pretty disgusting ride for me. Next time a member posts something that utterly crude, ban his ass right away, please. No excuses and no nanny-ing. There should never be tolerance for this kind of thing. Never.

I'm sorry, John. I never intended to condone anti-semitism.

I see a lot of anti-________ (you name it) all the time. I think any hateful behaivor or thought is wrong in every way. In America there's a strong anti-Islam sentiment among Christians and there's an anti-fundamentalist Christian sentiment among others. There's anti-conservatives and anti-liberals, etc... We need to transform ourselves where we see the humanity in everyone so that we can't just label someone and throw them out with the trash if we don't like them.

This is exactly what I tried to do with Che. I wanted to bring us together so we wouldn't make off the cuff statements about each other while ignoring each other's humanity. I personally believe if you want to change ignorant thinking, you need to love the person who hates you, and hopefully their eyes can be opened to a higher understanding of things.

Now, I finally think we should drop politics around here. If having it isn't going to better us, then what's the purpose?

[JSngry]

AB, although I deeply adrmire, respect, and even condone your attempts to avoid ugliness and create unity, I'm afraid that I have to say that imo, unresolvable ugliness is an unavoidable part of life, no matter what steps we take to avoid it. To the extent that heated confrontation eventually leads to understanding, it's an "unpleasant benefical". When it doesn't get there, hey, what can you do other than step over the corpses and keep going?

That's dark, I know, but really, that's the only way to live in a free world that I can personally see. Revel in the good, walk around the bad, try to change what you can, leave alone what you can't, and keep your head to the sky, as the song says.

[BERIGAN]

If you go far enough to the right, or to left, you end up meeting your "enemy".

A very poignant observation no matter what side you're on.

I agree with this.

Ok, Berigan. I see where you're coming from now.

(though I don't really totally agree with all of the statements made).

Will you at least try to?

( In honor of the departed)

[Jim Alfredson]

My plan with politics is to make it opt-in only. In other words, it is already hidden from non-members (guests). I'd like to hide it from members as well. Instead of having a special non-political subclass like we have now, everyone will be non-political until you ask to be allowed into the political forum. If you want to opt-in, then you have to agree to keep politics there and there only and not bring it into other parts of the board.

[AfricaBrass]

AB, although I deeply adrmire, respect, and even condone your attempts to avoid ugliness and create unity, I'm afraid that I have to say that imo, unresolvable ugliness is an unavoidable part of life, no matter what steps we take to avoid it. To the extent that heated confrontation eventually leads to understanding, it's an "unpleasant benefical". When it doesn't get there, hey, what can you do other than step over the corpses and keep going?

That's dark, I know, but really, that's the only way to live in a free world that I can personally see. Revel in the good, walk around the bad, try to change what you can, leave alone what you can't, and keep your head to the sky, as the song says.

Thank you, Jim.

As much as I like to go Don Quixote style after my own windmills, I see the wisdom in what you're saying. I just hoped for the best. Like some wiser people than me have said, these things have a way of working themselves out.