The Gasoline Blues

[wesbed]

wtf i'm gonna have to sell my mosaics to buy gas i drive 32/33 miles to work and back 6 days a week i have a honda civic ss1

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You've got a good car in regard to gas mileage. I'm driving a 4-cylinder Plymouth Breeze (you know my car) to work everyday. It's nothing more than an over-grown Chrysler Neon. Even 'I' am spending $40 per week to keep the tank full o' gas. I can only imagine what it's like have a gas guzzler as a daily driver.

Edited August 13, 2005 by wesbed

[Jim Alfredson]

$40 to fill up my minivan after the gig last night. Ouch. And it'll be all gone by tonight, after driving to and from Baker's.

[Hardbopjazz]

By TIM MOLLOY, Associated Press Writer

Sat Aug 13,12:51 PM ET

CORTE MADERA, Calif. - Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.

It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret — a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel.

Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.

Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb — all for about a quarter.

He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg.

They have support not only from environmentalists but also from conservative foreign policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism through their gas guzzling.

And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are beginning to take notice, too.

So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them.

"They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy."

The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg.

"The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference."

Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power.

Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price.

But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost, convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids — and note that consumers haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of recharging them like giant cell phones.

Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message.

Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of prominent hawks like former CIA director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney, President Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign oil dependence.

Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern governments that support terrorism.

"The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said.

DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they would be available.

Others are modifying hybrids, too.

Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said.

University of California, Davis engineering professor Andy Frank built a plug-in hybrid from the ground up in 1972 and has since built seven others, one of which gets up to 250 mpg. They were converted from non-hybrids, including a Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Suburban.

Frank has spent $150,000 to $250,000 in research costs on each car, but believes automakers could mass-produce them by adding just $6,000 to each vehicle's price tag.

Instead, Frank said, automakers promise hydrogen-powered vehicles hailed by President Bush and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though hydrogen's backers acknowledge the cars won't be widely available for years and would require a vast infrastructure of new fueling stations.

"They'd rather work on something that won't be in their lifetime, and that's this hydrogen economy stuff," Frank said. "They pick this kind of target to get the public off their back, essentially."

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On the Net:

CalCars Initiative: http://calcars.org

[LennyH]

Yes! The hybrid is the ticket. I don't care if I have to plug it in every day. With a car like that, and hopefully ethanol being in the mix, we're on the way. My next car will be a hybrid. I wish it could be the plug in variety.

Hydrogen may be the answer.....someday. NOT now. The auto makers and government, IMO, should not be looking at hydrogen as the next step. They aren't even close to perfecting a delivery method for this. Bush thinks it would "wreck the economy" to reduce greenhouse gases per the Kyoto protocol but he thinks hydrogen is a viable solution to reduce our dependence on foreign oil? That's funny. I can't imagine what it would cost to make hydrogen available to the mass market.

Ethanol, however, can be delivered by the same equipment used for gasoline. And anybody can make ethanol or the variety of crops that can be used to make it, so it will always be a commodity that can't be controlled by a handful of countries.

What the hell are we waiting for? I'm with the others who are happy with the high gas prices. It's the only thing that will get people's attention. I continue to be amazed at the stupidity of OPEC. They should be doing everything they can to gouge us as much as possible without really getting people's attention. But maybe the Saudi's and some of the others really are at capacity and they're powerless to stop this.

[LennyH]

Check out the cars today that can run on a mixture of 85% ethanol and 15% gas.

Available E85 Cars

If we only had a way to get the fuel.....

[Kevin Bresnahan]

There's an article in my local paper that talks about gas breaking $3 a gallon out on the Massachusetts islands. Gas prices are making headlines again. If we're lukcy, these articles will continue to hold the front page. Every day that "HIGH GAS PRICES" leads the news is another day that someone in the market for a new commuter vehicle will think, "Jeez, maybe I shouldn't buy this Ford Expedition because the gas prices are still going up".

I'm still hoping that gas hits $5 a gallon... for a month. After a month, drop back down to $1.00. After a month of crazy-high gas, maybe the SUV sales will shrink back down to a normal level and commuter vehicles might actually start looking like "cars" again.

BTW, I would never make that mod to my Prius. First off, it invalidates your warranty. My electrical motor and battery have a 100,000 mile warranty. Secondly, I DO NOT want to have to plug my car in. I'll let the gas engine charge my batteries, thanks very much. I will look into alternative fuels when they come out, but until then, I'm waiting for the Toyota Sienna hybrid. My wife's 1999 Sienna only gets about 20 mpg. Even she's complaining about filling it up and she only fills up about once every two weeks.

Kevin

[BERIGAN]

Yes!  The hybrid is the ticket.  I don't care if I have to plug it in every day.  ...

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Thing is, you will use more electricity with a car like that...we will need to burn more coal, oil, or will have to have more Nuclear plants....Hybrids that can recharge themselves seem like a better idea...

Edited August 16, 2005 by BERIGAN

[Hardbopjazz]

What are the chances of this happening with a oil man in the white house?

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Never happen.

I had to cut back on CD buying because the price of gas has risen too high.

Edited August 16, 2005 by Hardbopjazz

[jazzypaul]

There's an article in my local paper that talks about gas breaking $3 a gallon out on the Massachusetts islands. Gas prices are making headlines again. If we're lukcy, these articles will continue to hold the front page. Every day that "HIGH GAS PRICES" leads the news is another day that someone in the market for a new commuter vehicle will think, "Jeez, maybe I shouldn't buy this Ford Expedition because the gas prices are still going up".

I'm still hoping that gas hits $5 a gallon... for a month. After a month, drop back down to $1.00. After a month of crazy-high gas, maybe the SUV sales will shrink back down to a normal level and commuter vehicles might actually start looking like "cars" again.

BTW, I would never make that mod to my Prius. First off, it invalidates your warranty. My electrical motor and battery have a 100,000 mile warranty. Secondly, I DO NOT want to have to plug my car in. I'll let the gas engine charge my batteries, thanks very much. I will look into alternative fuels when they come out, but until then, I'm waiting for the Toyota Sienna hybrid. My wife's 1999 Sienna only gets about 20 mpg. Even she's complaining about filling it up and she only fills up about once every two weeks.

Kevin

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Since Toyota and Ford both have Hybrid SUV's on the market, and Ford, Chevy and Hummer (?!?!?!) all have hybrid SUV's on the way, and VW has a V10 Diesel SUV on the market (35 mpg/500+lb. ft. of torque), Kevin's argument still aims the wrong way.

Why not complain about cars like mine (pocket rockets)? Small car, huge performance, low-mid 20's for gas mileage. Sure, a few of those beasts might claim great gas mileage when driven the way a grandmother would drive one, but I guarantee you, there's not a person out there that owns one that drives like a little old lady, driving fuel economy on those cars way down. What about the fact that said Sienna that you talk about only does 2 mpg better than a Ford Explorer (with a V6, anyway)?

If it's gas mileage you're talking about, you need to focus your argument a little more, and you should be willing to aim your ire at Cadillacs, Lincolns and big cars from Mercedes, BMW and Chrysler just as much as you're willing to make those SUV's your bad guys.

Because right now, you come off as someone who would be better off not driving. It's not SUV drivers that are dangerous, it's people that don't know jack shit about what else is on the road.

[WD45]

If it's gas mileage you're talking about, you need to focus your argument a little more, and you should be willing to aim your ire at Cadillacs, Lincolns and big cars from Mercedes, BMW and Chrysler just as much as you're willing to make those SUV's your bad guys.

I'll agree with that. If anything, it should be extended to those folks that run their tires below recommended inflation levels and don't have tune-ups at regular intervals.

Seriously, though -- Audi's A4 station wagon gets 15 mpg. Pitiful. We can do better than that. This isn't 1972. The technology is there, Mr. auto-maker, lets use it.

[BERIGAN]

If it's gas mileage you're talking about, you need to focus your argument a little more, and you should be willing to aim your ire at Cadillacs, Lincolns and big cars from Mercedes, BMW and Chrysler just as much as you're willing to make those SUV's your bad guys.

I'll agree with that. If anything, it should be extended to those folks that run their tires below recommended inflation levels and don't have tune-ups at regular intervals.

Seriously, though -- Audi's A4 station wagon gets 15 mpg. Pitiful. We can do better than that. This isn't 1972. The technology is there, Mr. auto-maker, lets use it.

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I don't know WTF the auto companies are doing wrong, but it is something....Of course, I was saying years ago with all the SUV's being built, and with more and more people driving all the time, we were going to use a ton more fuel than we ever had before.

Would y'all believe that cars like the 1939-40 Nash could get up to 25 MPG??? A lot of the car companies then bragged about their fuel economy in coast to coast tests they performed with supposedly stock cars. Cars then were not that light, and the engines were low compression motors(Usually the higher the better for economy) but many had overdrive back then, and did quite well.

Hell, the 1969 Buick in my Garage with the "small" V-8 350, with a 4 barrel gets anywhere from 16 to 20 on the highway, which beats many a car or SUV today!(To show I ain't so crazy ass liar, the only car with working air right now is my 1971 Cadillac, and it only gets 11-12 MPG )

But why are the cars and trucks today doing so poorly? Most have overdrive, are much more aerodynamic than the vehicles of the past, there is much less internal friction in the engines as well, and the engineering advancements that should have been made in the last 30 years should have meant that those big bad SUV's were getting 30 MPG. Hell, to my layman's way of thinking, just put in a 7-8 speed transmission in, and have any vehicle running at 900 RPM at 70, and it should get excellent mileage, but what do I know?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I don't give a rat's ass about gas mileage. I see gas prices as a way to get the number of people buying SUVs to go down. Period. I like to see behemoths like the Ford Expedition rotting on the lots. I'd like for Hummer to go out of business... or at least go back to making troop transports.

Jazzypaul, I'm tired of arguing with you over this. You already told me what you think of people like me who drive normal sized cars. So just go ahead and buy your SUV. Just do me a favor... when you plow that high-riding bumper of your SUV into some family out for a drive, think about what you said here. If you get out and see that bumper lodged on top of a baby seat, how will you feel then? At least buy a Mercedes ML. They lowered their bumper down to "car height".

And your harping on who's fault it is for accidents... well, for the record, they are called accidents for a reason. People don't mean for them to happen. Ooops and all that. One "oopsie" by Buffy in her Hummer and there's a good chance that I'm road kill. If I have that same "oopsie" and Buffy's driving a Honda Accord, I have a chance, especially with my front & side airbags.

Gas went up 15 cents this week. A survey of Mass drivers was done yesterday and it showed that the gas prices are getting them to change their driving habits. I figure when gas hits $3, it might start getting buyers to re-think that Hummer. $4 and maybe they'll stop buying those Explorers. $5 and maybe those F350s will go away. Those truck guys won't drive a car for nothin'.

Kevin

[WD45]

And your harping on who's fault it is for accidents... well, for the record, they are called accidents for a reason. People don't mean for them to happen. Ooops and all that. One "oopsie" by Buffy in her Hummer and there's a good chance that I'm road kill. If I have that same "oopsie" and Buffy's driving a Honda Accord, I have a chance, especially with my front & side airbags.

Word.

On a humorous note, my mother was talking to an old lady [notoriously slow driving one, at that] who said, "I don't know how people get into accidents. If I was going into the ditch, I would just stop the car."

Edited August 16, 2005 by WD45

[Jazzmoose]

Yes!  The hybrid is the ticket.  I don't care if I have to plug it in every day.  ...

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Thing is, you will use more electricity with a car like that...we will need to burn more coal, oil, or will have to have more Nuclear plants....Hybrids that can recharge themselves seem like a better idea...

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Yeah, but how much electricity? As an example, the article above about the modified Prius talks about a quarter's worth a day...not too much coal burned there, I would assume.

[jazzypaul]

I don't give a rat's ass about gas mileage. I see gas prices as a way to get the number of people buying SUVs to go down. Period. I like to see behemoths like the Ford Expedition rotting on the lots. I'd like for Hummer to go out of business... or at least go back to making troop transports.

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At that point, that alone levels your argument. You only want people to drive exactly what you want them to drive, and that's about as fascist and stupid a thought as I've ever seen. "they're too tall! Wahhhhh!" Uggh.

Remember to put two ballots in the box for Bush and his cronies next time you brown shirt driver, you.

Jazzypaul, I'm tired of arguing with you over this. You already told me what you think of people like me who drive normal sized cars. So just go ahead and buy your SUV. Just do me a favor... when you plow that high-riding bumper of your SUV into some family out for a drive, think about what you said here. If you get out and see that bumper lodged on top of a baby seat, how will you feel then? At least buy a Mercedes ML. They lowered their bumper down to "car height".

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Feel like springing for one of those $60K glorified minivans? Please.

And your harping on who's fault it is for accidents... well, for the record, they are called accidents for a reason. People don't mean for them to happen. Ooops and all that. One "oopsie" by Buffy in her Hummer and there's a good chance that I'm road kill. If I have that same "oopsie" and Buffy's driving a Honda Accord, I have a chance, especially with my front & side airbags.

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Then why is it that there are people that drive their whole lives and never get into accidents? Or only manage to get into accidents where they are clearly not the ones at fault? If Buffy gets into an accident with you in either a Hummer or an Accord, I'm sorry. As for me, I'm attentive when I drive, and in the times when I have been behind the wheel of something larger (many rented SUV's) or something more classy (ahhh, the memories of a rented Jaguar...), I become even moreso, as I don't want to be the one to say that I hit that family out for a drive. And if some fucker blows a stop sign and hits me and I'm in that big ass SUV, well, that dude will certainly know not to blow another stop sign, won't he?

Seriously, I could see the argument if it's a fuel economy argument. I can see it if its a safety argument. But if it's simply a matter of poor little Kevie on the way to go name drop somewhere in his glorified putt-putt wanting everyone else to drive glorified putt-putts, well, then I have absolutely no sympathy for you.

Gas went up 15 cents this week. A survey of Mass drivers was done yesterday and it showed that the gas prices are getting them to change their driving habits. I figure when gas hits $3, it might start getting buyers to re-think that Hummer. $4 and maybe they'll stop buying those Explorers. $5 and maybe those F350s will go away. Those truck guys won't drive a car for nothin'.

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Re-thinking the Hummer? I'm right there with you. They're status-symbols, and not vehicles, and someone driving around because they want someone to see them is a dangerous proposition. Just as dangerous as a skittish driver in an electric bumper car.

The Explorer is a different situation altogether. They can function as minivans with some balls to them. Outfit it with the 6 instead of the 8 and it's a perfectly reasonable tradeoff, with the ability to handle the icky climates which much of this country can produce.

But gee, wanting to see those F-350's go away. Gee, Kevin, you're brilliant. So, yep, no more construction crews carrying all of their gear to and from sites. No more landscaping crews able to do their work. No more park district vehicles, no more service crews, no more heavy hauling where it's actually needed (please, show me someone driving around a 2-ton duelie for fun?).

But, hey, Kevin will be able to drive safely. So fuck the trades, who needs 'em. Kevin can get to the Starbucks quicker!!

[LennyH]

Yes!  The hybrid is the ticket.  I don't care if I have to plug it in every day.  ...

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Thing is, you will use more electricity with a car like that...we will need to burn more coal, oil, or will have to have more Nuclear plants....Hybrids that can recharge themselves seem like a better idea...

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Yeah, but how much electricity? As an example, the article above about the modified Prius talks about a quarter's worth a day...not too much coal burned there, I would assume.

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Thanks, Moose.

It's reasonable to ask whether using electricity for a plug in hybrid is just replacing one type of fossil fuel consumption for another, but the facts speak for themselves.

Here a nice piece by Joe Romm, who ran the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy at the US Department of Energy during part of the Clinton Administration and wrote "The Hype about Hydrogen" (Island Press, 2004).

News From CalCars on Plug-in Hybrids

I linked to that from one of the many sites I've learned a lot from the last few days.:

CalCars.org

[Use3D]

Remember to put two ballots in the box for Bush and his cronies next time you brown shirt driver, you.

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Brown shirt? Wow, way to crap all over your own argument.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Remember to put two ballots in the box for Bush and his cronies next time you brown shirt driver, you.

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Huh?!? Do not equate my stance as pro-Bush. That's a very odd take on it. Please start a thread about Bush and gas prices over in the political forum so I can continue to ignore it. Keep that stuff outta here, please.

Look, I'll admit that I helped derail this thread a bit. But just a bit. All I said was that I would love to see $5 a gallon. That can be debated. I'm fine with debating that. Why don't we at least try to keep the personal attacks out of it?

The thread is called "The Gasoline Blues". I have them, you have them... we all have them. I am trying to find a silver lining in all of it and the thread bogged down into a politics. Sorry if I initiated this plunge into "the dark side".

Back to The Gasoline Blues.

I'm outta here.

Kevin

[jazzbo]

Problem is that. . . in reality. . . gasoline is firmly a part of American politics. . . national, international, local. . . . Wish it weren't; we'd have seen real innovations long ago!

[Hardbopjazz]

Problem is that. . . in reality. . . gasoline is firmly a part of American politics. . . national, international, local. . . . Wish it weren't; we'd have seen real innovations long ago!

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I can't agree with you more. Had gas not been so immersed in politics we would have had other sources. I remember Jimmy Carter starting the Federal program to find alternative sources of engry, in order to decrease our dependency on foreign sources. Ronald Regan expanded on it when he took office. But when Bush the first took office, he killed the program.

Edited August 17, 2005 by Hardbopjazz

[jazzypaul]

Remember to put two ballots in the box for Bush and his cronies next time you brown shirt driver, you.

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Brown shirt? Wow, way to crap all over your own argument.

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one of these days, one of your posts will actually make sense.

[Use3D]

one of these days, one of your posts will actually make sense.

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Here's a hint: Try making your point without equating people to nazis. You won't look like a big retard and people might take you seriously.

[jazzypaul]

Look, I'll admit that I helped derail this thread a bit. But just a bit. All I said was that I would love to see $5 a gallon. That can be debated. I'm fine with debating that. Why don't we at least try to keep the personal attacks out of it?

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Actually, hoping for $5/gallon gas isn't really derailing the thread. However, it is INCREDIBLY short sighted, especially when the crux of your argument is that you want to see vehicles that are bigger than your car off the road. Because what ends up happening is that such a wish essentially hopes for the crippling of America. It ends up hurting the mom with the four kids that needs the minivan (or the gas sucking station wagon for that matter). It ends up hurting the businesses that have legitimate needs for bigger vehicles. It ends up stifling the 16 year old gearhead that could become tomorrow's engineer that designs a feasible hydrogen powered drivetrain. And it ends up hurting the keyboardists and drummers who make the music that you claim to love so much when they have to be more selective about the gigs they take because it costs $60 to fill up their tanks (my VW holds 13 gallons. I have to use premium. Last fill up? $40). As I've stated before, due to convenience and driving preferences, an SUV is my only real next option as I get older and my back gets worse.

And so, in that wishing for $5 per gallon gasoline, you're wishing ill will on me. I see that as a personal attack. Sorry. Prove me wrong, and I'll gladly go back and do all sorts of post editing.

The thread is called "The Gasoline Blues". I have them, you have them... we all have them. I am trying to find a silver lining in all of it and the thread bogged down into a politics. Sorry if I initiated this plunge into "the dark side".

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So, your silver lining is hoping for the misery and financial strain of others? That's nuts, man.

[RDK]

I found the highlighted bit about the Accord Hybrid quite surprising...

By Anne Thompson

Correspondent

NBC News

Updated: 7:30 p.m. ET Aug. 16, 2005

Clay Chandler is looking for his second hybrid, this time an SUV, because as the owner of a Toyota Prius, he’s one of the few people smiling at the pump. “It’s especially nice when you go into a gas station and everyone else is going past $30 dollars and mine stops at $10 or $11,” says Chandler.

That’s the promise of these vehicles with electric motors and gas engines — but what’s the reality?

David Champion tests cars for Consumer Reports. The government says the popular Prius gets 60 miles a gallon in the city and 51 on the highway. But in real-world driving, Champion, got less.

“We found very similar results on the highway,” said Champion, “But instead of 60 miles per gallon we only got 35 miles per gallon in the city. So it’s a huge difference.”

And not all hybrids are the same. While they started out emphasizing fuel economy — by using the electric motor at low speeds — today, some cars like the Honda Accord hybrid emphasize performance, using the electric motor to boost the gas engine.

“The Honda Accord hybrid gives you almost a second quicker zero to 60, but only gives you maybe 2 miles per gallon overall in terms of your fuel savings,” says Champion.

There’s more to consider than just gas savings: This technology is expensive — adding $3,000 to almost $12,000 to the price.

Automotive analysts say these green vehicles depreciate faster and, because they are more expensive, cost more to insure.

"Hybrids make great sense if you want to make a statement," adds Champion. "If you purely want to save money, they’re a little less defensible.”

In fact, after crunching the numbers, Edmunds.com found only the Prius saved the buyer money after five years — just $81 over a conventional Camry.

It doesn’t matter to Scott Neal, who’s about to buy a hybrid SUV.

"I will have fun driving it," says Neal, “And I will be helping the ecology and keeping pollution down.”

And that, he and other hybrid owners believe, makes all the sense in the world.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8975473/

[BERIGAN]

I found the highlighted bit about the Accord Hybrid quite surprising... 

By Anne Thompson

Correspondent

NBC News

Updated: 7:30 p.m. ET Aug. 16, 2005

Clay Chandler is looking for his second hybrid, this time an SUV, because as the owner of a Toyota Prius, he’s one of the few people smiling at the pump. “It’s especially nice when you go into a gas station and everyone else is going past $30 dollars and mine stops at $10 or $11,” says Chandler.

That’s the promise of these vehicles with electric motors and gas engines — but what’s the reality?

David Champion tests cars for Consumer Reports. The government says the popular Prius gets 60 miles a gallon in the city and 51 on the highway. But in real-world driving, Champion, got less.

“We found very similar results on the highway,” said Champion, “But instead of 60 miles per gallon we only got 35 miles per gallon in the city. So it’s a huge difference.”

And not all hybrids are the same. While they started out emphasizing fuel economy — by using the electric motor at low speeds — today, some cars like the Honda Accord hybrid emphasize performance, using the electric motor to boost the gas engine.

“The Honda Accord hybrid gives you almost a second quicker zero to 60, but only gives you maybe 2 miles per gallon overall in terms of your fuel savings,” says Champion.

There’s more to consider than just gas savings: This technology is expensive — adding $3,000 to almost $12,000 to the price.

Automotive analysts say these green vehicles depreciate faster and, because they are more expensive, cost more to insure.

"Hybrids make great sense if you want to make a statement," adds Champion. "If you purely want to save money, they’re a little less defensible.”

In fact, after crunching the numbers, Edmunds.com found only the Prius saved the buyer money after five years — just $81 over a conventional Camry.

It doesn’t matter to Scott Neal, who’s about to buy a hybrid SUV.

"I will have fun driving it," says Neal, “And I will be helping the ecology and keeping pollution down.”

And that, he and other hybrid owners believe, makes all the sense in the world.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8975473/

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Yeah, I saw that on the today show..today. It really doesn't make sense. Like what was mentioned before, check tire your tire pressure, run the car AC(As was mentioned after this report on the today show, driving with the windows down creates such a drag that fuel economy is worse!) and get a tune-up, and wait till you see hybrids that really get better milage.