The Gasoline Blues

[jazzypaul]

Well, I would still pay 70 dollars a month for use of CTA.  I am determined to NOT buy a car and 70 dollars a month is very cheap for all one's transportation needs.

When I stopped playing in bands and didn't need to haul my drums around I soon found over the next years that I did NOT need to DRIVE.  My wife too does not drive (which is good because she is SCARY BAD behind the wheel).

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Honestly, I wouldn't need to drive at all if public transportation in Chicago, and ESPECIALLY the suburbs was better.

The problem is that with two exceptions, the L trains only run through affluent (for the most part) areas. The bus service is awful for the most part, and the heads of the CTA keep forgetting that if you want to make more money, run MORE trains, not less. Making things even more ridiculous is the fact that there's not a north south train anywhere west of Clark, so for all of us near west side types, travelling via public transport can be a major pain in the ass depending on where you're going. It really pissed me off when I was reading a book on the history of Chicago Public Transportation and I found out that there were actually two different L systems that serviced my neighborhood (Ukie Village), and they were both torn down in the late 1950's. Grrrrr....

The suburban trains (the metra) is even worse. all trains run only once an hour, except during rush hours, and the bus service is deplorable. I mean, if the schedules were more accomodating, the only time I would ever need to drive would be to get to gigs in the suburbs, because I could (and have) just take taxis to gigs in Chicago, and then I don't have to worry about parking.

But considering the way public transportation exists now in Chicago, it would be nearly impossible to really consider giving up one's car unless you lived in Lincoln Park, Ravenswood or Rogers Park. And none of those neighborhoods agree at all with my pocketbook. Oh well.

[Joe G]

It really pissed me off when I was reading a book on the history of Chicago Public Transportation and I found out that there were actually two different L systems that serviced my neighborhood (Ukie Village), and they were both torn down in the late 1950's.  Grrrrr....

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Did that history book mention the fact that the big automakers were a major force behind the dismantling of public transportation?

[wesbed]

BTW, I didn't mean to come across like I was coming down on my buddy Wes.

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No offense taken. We don't make these cars, we buy what is made available to us. We hope to make the best choice for our individual situation.

I believe the high roll-over risk was greatly reduced when Chrysler redesigned the Jeep in the 1980s. I've had mine on many mountain sides recently and have yet to tip it over. Of course, off-road driving takes place at about five miles per hour versus much faster highway speeds.

I don't believe a Jeep makes for a good everyday car, driving to and from work. The Jeep is fun but rides rough, has no storage space and uses more gasoline than is necessary. I prefer to drive an on-road car around town and drive the Jeep on the weekends.

For general safety? I believe there is no comparison. The Jeep is the safer vehicle. It's got an old-fashioned, American made frame underneath. The Plymouth... there's no old-fashioned frame under there. I'm not sure what holds it together.

Here's a picture of a friend with one of those no-tip-over Jeeps.

[jazzbo]

I lived in Chicago for some years in the seventies. . . . I know Austin is not Chicago, it's a small city in comparison, and I worked hard to buy a house in a decent neighborhood on three major bus routes that lead to both my wife's and my workplace, that is within walking distance of a fancy supermarket and a big drugstore, etc. Planning paid off; eight years now without a car.

[Jim Dye]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/automobiles/09mini.html

I'd love a minivan that got 43 miles to the gallon! I long for the days of my '87 Honda Civic CRX HF. It would get nearly 50 mpg on the highway.

Edited August 9, 2005 by Jim Dye

[Jim Alfredson]

I have to say that I'm a little dismayed by the fact that it's come down to "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." I took a trip up north this last weekend, and I can't tell you how many times a goddam Dodge Ram maxi-cab 4X4 towing a trailer full of quad runners came up on me in the passing lane doing between 85 and 90 mph. Of course, they would invariably sit right on my bumper until I got around the car I was passing. F**K! How about a little courtesy??? And I'm NOT going to buy an SUV that I don't need just to feel "safe".

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Word. And to compare SUVs to minivans is ridiculous. My '99 Plymouth Voyager, which I need to haul the B3 and Leslie, is dwarfed by 99% of the SUVs and trucks out there. Go look at a Ford Excursion, the Dodge Durango, or the GMC Envoy and then look at a minivan. There is no comparison. Minivans also have more storage space and better fuel economy. My next minivan is going to be the Toyota Sienna!

I really don't know why a musician wouldn't buy a minivan vs. an SUV. They are smaller, more versatile, have better fuel economy, drive great, and are less expensive to maintain. In fact, a buddy of mine recently sold his SUV (one of the smaller ones... an Olds Bravada) after only a few months and got a minivan (which then, unfortunately got hit head-on by an old lady driver) because the mpg were so bad on the SUV. He loved that minivan.

[catesta]

I lived in Chicago for some years in the seventies. . . . I know Austin is not Chicago, it's a small city in comparison, and I worked hard to buy a house in a decent neighborhood on three major bus routes that lead to both my wife's and my workplace, that is within walking distance of a fancy supermarket and a big drugstore, etc.  Planning paid off; eight years now without a car.

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Lon, no car at all, or does your wife have one?

I'm down to one right now myself. I need the big ass thing for work. Hopefully we can remian with just one.

[Jim Dye]

Re: the Wuling Sunshine Minivan...

I'd probably look something like this when I got inside...

Edited August 9, 2005 by Jim Dye

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I wish I could look at the world the way you do, my man.  This is singularly one of the craziest posts I've ever read.

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What, me worrying about my safety is crazy? Don't you care if you get killed in a car crash for simple reason that the other car is a monstrosity? I worry about it a lot. I am a very safe driver. It's the guy/gal in the SUV that I worry about.

But, here's where I mock those who whine about SUV's: in many cases, they serve the exact same purpose as a minivan and get comparable gas mileage.  But one's okay and the other isn't?  That's completely fucked thinking.  And the whining about what will happen if an SUV hits your little car is screwy as well.  You KNOW that there are tons of SUV's on the road (and there's at least one Hybrid SUV available at the moment as well, thank you very much), and yet you still went ahead and bought a tiny little automobile that won't survive a crash with one.  Whose fault is that?  You knew exactly what you were getting into.

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So, join 'em if you can't beat 'em? Is that what you think will change this horrible change in the cars driving on out highways?? That is crazy thinking. Me buying an SUV just puts another SUV on the road! We don't need more, we need less if we ever want to decrease our dependence on foreign oil.

The only way some of the people buying these behemouths will stop and reconsider is if gas goes through the roof. The rich will still buy them, but "Joe Blow" and his family won't. There are far too many SUVs on our roads today.

As for me, my next car will be an SUV because I've torn up my back too many times getting drums out of a VW GTI.  And as much as I love VW's, they're too small.  So, the next one will be a Jeep Grand Cherokee.  And when somebody in some tiny little car hits me and their car turns into an accordian, I'm gonna tell 'em that it serves them right.

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Nice. I guess if you get crunched by a Mack truck, we can all say, "Well, that serves him right".

That said, I wish that every company were forced to develop hybrid versions of all of their cars (Corvettes and other niche market cars excluded, natch), so that we'd use less gas, conserve energy and be better off financially AND environmentally.

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Why? People like you won't buy 'em anyway! Why should they build more? Just so you'll have more people you can crush and tell 'em that it serves them right?

[jazzypaul]

It really pissed me off when I was reading a book on the history of Chicago Public Transportation and I found out that there were actually two different L systems that serviced my neighborhood (Ukie Village), and they were both torn down in the late 1950's.  Grrrrr....

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Did that history book mention the fact that the big automakers were a major force behind the dismantling of public transportation?

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It didn't get into that as much as it discussed the sheer stupidity of the woodlawn community clammoring for the teardown of a CTA station because transportation = crime. It got into the idiocy of the CTA (with seemingly not too much outside help) demolishing all of the L lines that ran from the stockyards to all of the east side neighborhoods (yes, Virginia, there is an east side of Chicago, south of lake michigan). There are more demolished lines than there are currently in use. And there are some really dumb station demolitions which make no sense (like 31st street on the red line). Most of this is also on a couple of websites. I might post them at some point if there is interest...

[jazzypaul]

What, me worrying about my safety is crazy? Don't you care if you get killed in a car crash for simple reason that the other car is a monstrosity? I worry about it a lot. I am a very safe driver. It's the guy/gal in the SUV that I worry about.

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You should worry about your safety. But equating bad driving with SUV's is just plain ignorant. If you worry that much behind the wheel, I guarantee that you ARE NOT any sort of safe driver. It's like driving with my mom. Sure she looks everywhere before doing anything, but she's so scared of the road that even if she is safe, she is most certainly NOT safe around other drivers.

So, join 'em if you can't beat 'em? Is that what you think will change this horrible change in the cars driving on out highways?? That is crazy thinking. Me buying an SUV just puts another SUV on the road! We don't need more, we need less if we ever want to decrease our dependence on foreign oil.

The only way some of the people buying these behemouths will stop and reconsider is if gas goes through the roof. The rich will still buy them, but "Joe Blow" and his family won't. There are far too many SUVs on our roads today.

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Yeah, and all of us that are musicians (especially keyboardists and drummers) that need bigger vehicles can just go get fucked, right? Again, the argument that SUV's in and of themselves are evil is just asinine.

I agree that there is a mentality with these big boats (and I'm talking about the actual dinosaur trucks that are on the road, not your average Jeep/Highlander/Escape/Santa Fe here) that people can ignore everything else on the road. But is that the SUV's fault or the driver's fault? And should people that drive responsibly but need something bigger be villianized by the likes of you because of some sort of odd penis envy that you have? I think not my good man.

Nice. I guess if you get crunched by a Mack truck, we can all say, "Well, that serves him right".

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You can say things like that if you want. However, there are two things I steer clear of on the highway: semis and motorcycles. Semis because David and Goliath doesn't apply in auto accidents and motorcycles because a 300 lb bike with a 150lb rider stops a lot quicker than a 2400 lb souped up VW with a 200 lb driver and a set of drums in the back.

Why? People like you won't buy 'em anyway! Why should they build more? Just so you'll have more people you can crush and tell 'em that it serves them right?

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Gee willikers! Kevin knows more about me than I do!!! Kevin thinks that I want a bigger vehicle SPECIFICALLY so I can use more gas!!!! Wow!! Kevin probably knows everything, including how to turn lead into gold!

Oh wait, nope. He's just yet another holier-than-thou twit with an agenda that thinks he can peg everyone from a couple of internet posts.

So, to set the record straight, here's the deal: I want an SUV so that I can carry drums and people around. So that when I go grocery shopping in the suburbs, I can buy enough groceries to last me more than a few days. So that when I decide to take my friends out for a concert, dinner or whatever, I can take more than one in my car. And I've been drooling over Toyota's plan to make a hybrid Highlander since they announced that one might be in the works. What? Paul, the evil, horrible, SUV wanting douchebag is specifically eyeing a hybrid SUV, hoping that it will get built by the time that it's time to buy a car again? What? I'd investigate the Ford Escape Hybrid, but they're asking $27K for an otherwise $17K mini-SUV. That math doesn't add up.

Neither do people who think that certain vehicles are more evil than others.

[jazzypaul]

I have to say that I'm a little dismayed by the fact that it's come down to "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." I took a trip up north this last weekend, and I can't tell you how many times a goddam Dodge Ram maxi-cab 4X4 towing a trailer full of quad runners came up on me in the passing lane doing between 85 and 90 mph. Of course, they would invariably sit right on my bumper until I got around the car I was passing. F**K! How about a little courtesy??? And I'm NOT going to buy an SUV that I don't need just to feel "safe".

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Word. And to compare SUVs to minivans is ridiculous. My '99 Plymouth Voyager, which I need to haul the B3 and Leslie, is dwarfed by 99% of the SUVs and trucks out there. Go look at a Ford Excursion, the Dodge Durango, or the GMC Envoy and then look at a minivan. There is no comparison. Minivans also have more storage space and better fuel economy. My next minivan is going to be the Toyota Sienna!

I really don't know why a musician wouldn't buy a minivan vs. an SUV. They are smaller, more versatile, have better fuel economy, drive great, and are less expensive to maintain. In fact, a buddy of mine recently sold his SUV (one of the smaller ones... an Olds Bravada) after only a few months and got a minivan (which then, unfortunately got hit head-on by an old lady driver) because the mpg were so bad on the SUV. He loved that minivan.

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It depends on the SUV and it depends on the Minivan. Blanket statements in this discussion are the truly ridiculous ones. Look at the SUV's you mentioned. The Excursion is built on an F-150 Frame (it's a full sized 1/2 ton truck). The Durango is absolutely ginormous, and the Envoy can be had in a variety of different sizes, including one that is just shy of a 1/2 ton frame itself. And as for storage, again, it depends on the SUV. I was having a lot of trouble with the VW for a while, and you're right some of the SUV's out there are woefully lacking in storage. However, some others (namely the Ford Explorer) have massive cargo areas and seats that fold into the floor.

Personally, I find minivans to be sluggish. I drive a car that has been souped up enough that the thing is a rocket on four wheels, and my pet car up until recently was a 1972 Mercedes-Benz with a big ol' V8. So, the couple of times that I've driven mini-vans, I feel sadly underpowered. I'm driving the girlfriend's Mitsubishi Mirage this week, and I get freaked out when I try to make a turn, I step on the gas, and the car doesn't immediately move like a bat out of hell. Considering that I've yet to see a minivan (a 3000+ lb automobile already) without a 250-300hp engine, so I can also say that I've yet to see a minivan that I'd drive happily.

So, you drive what you drive, and I'll drive what I'll drive, but don't tell me that what I want to drive is evil just because you don't like them. If I get 20 mpg instead of 23, I won't complain. And if I won't complain, you shouldn't. (and for the record, that little VW that I've mentioned only averages about 21mpg right now anyway. A Jeep or a likeminded vehicle wouldn't really hurt me anymore at the fuel pump)

[Jim Alfredson]

And as for storage, again, it depends on the SUV.  I was having a lot of trouble with the VW for a while, and you're right some of the SUV's out there are woefully lacking in storage.  However, some others (namely the Ford Explorer) have massive cargo areas and seats that fold into the floor.

No SUV can hold a B3 and a Leslie (plus Joe's guitar rig, and a small sound system and two people). I guarantee.

Personally, I find minivans to be sluggish.  I drive a car that has been souped up enough that the thing is a rocket on four wheels, and my pet car up until recently was a 1972 Mercedes-Benz with a big ol' V8.  So, the couple of times that I've driven mini-vans, I feel sadly underpowered.  I'm driving the girlfriend's Mitsubishi Mirage this week, and I get freaked out when I try to make a turn, I step on the gas, and the car doesn't immediately move like a bat out of hell.  Considering that I've yet to see a minivan (a 3000+ lb automobile already) without a 250-300hp engine, so I can also say that I've yet to see a minivan that I'd drive happily.

I guess I don't expect a vehicle that is capable of carrying 7 adults or a 600 lbs load of instruments to be a "rocket on four wheels", nor do I need it to be. YMMV.

So, you drive what you drive, and I'll drive what I'll drive, but don't tell me that what I want to drive is evil just because you don't like them.

I'm not telling you what to drive because I don't like SUVs, I'm suggesting that they might not be the best choice for a working musician who needs to be conscious of mileage. Then again, I have no idea how much you drive. Our average gig is about an hour away (one way), so I burn through a lot of gas.

[wesbed]

I guess we should all be driving fucking Mack trucks.

Or maybe one of these, even a Mack would bounce off of that shit.

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A Jeep would have no problem with that big fucking thing.

[jazzbo]

Chris, no car at all. I know that should my wife have a car. . . I probably wouldn't have a wife. Worst imaginable driver. Panics. . . overthinks. . . hasn't got a lot of experience behind the wheel (hence, alive!) I love her to death, but everytime I knew she was driving somewhere I worried endlessly.

Now if I were allowed a motorcycle (she won't allow me one, she's too paranoid of my safety on the road!) I'd have one, but a car. . . I don't care enough. I love being able to read and walk my way around on bus or foot. The occasional cab is still way cheaper than vehicle and upkeep and insurance. I've arranged my setup well!

[jazzypaul]

It is true, there are several smallish SUVs on the market right now that are a good mix of utility and responsibility.  A Grand Cherokee is not one.  Neither is the Ford Excursion.  The Honda CR-V is a good example, and the Toyota RAV4 does better, too.

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Basing responsibility on a website and some goofy preconceived notion of what belongs on a road is beyond me. There are plenty of points you're not taking into account here, like: comfort, amount of cargo room, safety and hundreds of others that I don't have time to go through. Just because some web guy with an agenda says something doesn't make it so. Give me that Grand Cherokee and I can load my entire drumset into the cargo bay and drive the saxophonist and our significant others to the gig in comfort. Beyond that, I'll have the kind of horsepower I like in a vehicle so that I don't have to be that timid guy driving in the right lane because my vehicle is sapped of all of its power by holding four humans and a drumset. Of course, I could also do so in that previously mentioned Toyota Highlander Hybrid. If they build it, I will come. In the meantime, the Grand Cherokee is roughly the same size, American made, easily fixable and a comfortable ride. Sorry.

BTW, with both the CR-V and the RAV-4, there's no difference between them and their car counterparts. They're SUV's for college girls who want to be trendy. But, hey, WD, if you want to be a trendy college girl, you go right ahead.

The roadway Darwinism is frightening, especially when people buy into it at this degree.  The most effective method for surviving an accident is to avoid one.  When it comes to stopping the 7,200 lbs curb weight of an Excursion vs. the 2,400 lbs of my Protege, there is little contest.  Plus, I can park pretty much anywhere.      [That is, when I have the car.  The wife and I share one; I am a bus commuter, too!]

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I will say, that will be one sad thing about giving up my GTI. I can park in the smallest of spaces in the most dire of circumstances. And it's got so much power at the flywheel that I can usually plow through snow in the winter relatively easily. I've needed a shovel to get out of a parking spot twice.

And, I agree, the best way to avoid the accident is to avoid the accident. Which can be done two ways: by braking or by accelerating and getting the hell out of the way. This is why I prefer my cars overpowered. I haven't hit anyone in 14 years of driving and I don't plan to once I have a bigger vehicle. If someone hits me, and it's their fault, however, why is it my fault that I have a bigger vehicle?

As far as the vehicles with no frame vs. the "good old fashioned frame," the debate should focus on not preconceptions of rigidity and saftey, but rather how these vehicles are designed.  If rock solid cars were the key, then they would have kept on making the steering columns in cars like the spears they came to be.  How many people were impaled before the auto companies were compelled to create one that was designed to collapse in a crash?  The same goes for front ends and sides of cars designed now.  Remember how long seat belts were and *option* and not standard equipment?

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I agree. I don't think that anyone is denying the goodness of modern advancements in automotive technology. But, at the end of the day, having a big car (or truck) is going to help the situation as well. And while I don't sweat it nearly as much, I am soon to have a wife, and hopefully not too much longer down the line, kids. At which point, all bets are off. I want my wife and kids to survive the accident unscathed. And if the unattentive driver in the Prius eats a bumper in the process, I'm sorry, but that's life. If that makes me a bad guy, then I will be more than happy to be that bad guy.

[jazzypaul]

No SUV can hold a B3 and a Leslie (plus Joe's guitar rig, and a small sound system and two people).  I guarantee.

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For just the B-3 and the leslie, think again. I know a few organ players that get around in SUV's. The organist in the Three Blind Mice kept a B-3, a Rhodes and a Leslie in the back with all of the seats out and still had room for his tools (an electrician by day) in his suburban and never had any problems. Now, you're holding more stuff than just that B-3 and Leslie, so maybe you need just that little extra bit of room. But, once again, to each their own, and to villianize someone for what they drive or to put them down for their choice is a little asinine to me.

I guess I don't expect a vehicle that is capable of carrying 7 adults or a 600 lbs load of instruments to be a "rocket on four wheels", nor do I need it to be.  YMMV.

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My results DO vary, thank you very much. I don't expect a rocket on four wheels out of a vehicle that big. However, I do expect to be able to move when I punch the gas. I do expect my vehicle to be able to manuever away from a dangerous situation instead of braking and making yourself a lame duck. No minivan that I've yet seen can do that. However, a 280 hp Ford Explorer sure can. So, that's my choice. YMMV.

I'm not telling you what to drive because I don't like SUVs, I'm suggesting that they might not be the best choice for a working musician who needs to be conscious of mileage.  Then again, I have no idea how much you drive.  Our average gig is about an hour away (one way), so I burn through a lot of gas.

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See, I'm in a situation where most of my gigs are either less than 10 miles from my house, or less than 10 miles from work. So, I don't need to be quite so worried about it. I'd rather drive something that I really like and burn a couple more mpg than drive something that I don't like when I only fill up once a week anyway.

[jazzypaul]

What I meant by posting those links: it is the first site that came up when searching for fuel economy.  That is the responsibility I speak of.

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well, for some, that is not the only responsibility out there. There are other worldviews out there other than yours. I think if this was a religious discussion, you'd probably say the exact same thing. So why is your worldview the only responsible one in this instance?

I have driven nothing but underpowered economy cars and I have avoided accidents as well.

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You need a hug and a spin around the block in a grand national.

Have you resorted to calling me a *girl* in an attempt to get an upper hand?  That is pathetic. 

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Please read what I say, and not what you think I said.

Allow me to demonstrate...

This would be me calling you a girl:

WD45, you're a girl

which is quite different than ribbing you a little bit for your choice in automobiles:

BTW, with both the CR-V and the RAV-4, there's no difference between them and their car counterparts. They're SUV's for college girls who want to be trendy. But, hey, WD, if you want to be a trendy college girl, you go right ahead.

Note what I am saying here...that the two "responsible" SUV's that you listed were trendy college girl cars. I am not calling you a girl here. Instead, I am saying that a look at demographic marketing would prove that Honda and Toyota wanted to make cute little SUV's that would appeal to women in the 18-25 market, and if you look at sales figures, you will find that they largely hit their target. (thanks to my brother the mechanic for such figures when I was briefly looking at a Ford Escape)

Thus, if you wanted to buy one and fit in with that demographic, then you are more than welcomed to do so, but I will not be joining you in your decision.

Now, if that's "calling you a girl" then I don't know what to say. I'll be happy to apologize by baking a quiche for you and delivering it to your front door.

However, I do not agree with you that such a remark as "...if you want to be a trendy college girl, you go right ahead." falls into that category.

WD45, I hope that you will realize that although you feel the need to treat every last keystroke of mine with contempt that I don't feel the same way about you. If something I write looks like a good-natured joke, it should be taken that way. Getting offended by everything I say will only provoke bad tastes in people's mouths. I don't want that, and I hope that you do not want it either.

[JSngry]

Turning the Average American Driver loose on the roads with an SUV is like pumping the average Paranoid Rural American full of crank and caffeine and turning them loose on the streets of Bed-Sty with an AK-47 at 2 AM on a Saturday.

It's true - guns don't kill people, people kill people. That's kinda the problem...

[Jim Alfredson]

For just the B-3 and the leslie, think again.  I know a few organ players that get around in SUV's.  The organist in the Three Blind Mice kept a B-3, a Rhodes and a Leslie in the back with all of the seats out and still had room for his tools (an electrician by day) in his suburban and never had any problems.  Now, you're holding more stuff than just that B-3 and Leslie, so maybe you need just that little extra bit of room.  But, once again, to each their own, and to villianize someone for what they drive or to put them down for their choice is a little asinine to me.

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I don't think I've villianized anyone on this thread or put anyone down. Except for people that drive Hummers or Cadillac SUVs. That's just retarded and a waste of money.

Anyway, concerning getting a B3 and Leslie in a Suburban, that's surprising. I did not think a Suburban would be tall enough to get a B3 on Roll-A-Karis and a normal sized Leslie (a 122) upright in it's covered bed. Also, it seems like a pain. My minivan is only about a foot off the ground. How high is the bed of a Suburban? A lot higher, if I recall.

Now if he's laying the B3 down on it's back, that's probably not a good idea. The oil will leak out to places you don't want it to leak to. Upright is best.

[jazzypaul]

For just the B-3 and the leslie, think again.  I know a few organ players that get around in SUV's.  The organist in the Three Blind Mice kept a B-3, a Rhodes and a Leslie in the back with all of the seats out and still had room for his tools (an electrician by day) in his suburban and never had any problems.  Now, you're holding more stuff than just that B-3 and Leslie, so maybe you need just that little extra bit of room.  But, once again, to each their own, and to villianize someone for what they drive or to put them down for their choice is a little asinine to me.

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I don't think I've villianized anyone on this thread or put anyone down. Except for people that drive Hummers or Cadillac SUVs. That's just retarded and a waste of money.

Anyway, concerning getting a B3 and Leslie in a Suburban, that's surprising. I did not think a Suburban would be tall enough to get a B3 on Roll-A-Karis and a normal sized Leslie (a 122) upright in it's covered bed. Also, it seems like a pain. My minivan is only about a foot off the ground. How high is the bed of a Suburban? A lot higher, if I recall.

Now if he's laying the B3 down on it's back, that's probably not a good idea. The oil will leak out to places you don't want it to leak to. Upright is best.

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I'll agree that Hummers (glorified suburbans with cool grills) and Caddy SUV's (the slightly smaller Tahoe) are both enormous wastes of cash. I will also say that the new H3 (based on the Trailblazer platform for about $6K more than a Trailblazer) seems like it could be fun, but out of my price range, and it's not a jeep or a highlander, so I'll be passing that one up.

He got his B-3 in on its back, and never seemed to have a problem. Also, I'm sure that not hauling bass pedals around saved some space too. His new band finds him retired from the B-3 and just playing a suitcase rhodes, which has no oil.

[connoisseur series500]

Who knows what the fuck the Chinese product is made of?

Dog?

[connoisseur series500]

BTW, I apologize in advance to any posters from China.

You are equally free to mock the places of my birth and residence...

[wesbed]

Who knows what the fuck the Chinese product is made of?

Dog?

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Panda?

[7/4]

BTW, I apologize in advance to any posters from China. 

You are equally free to mock the places of my birth and residence...

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Open season on posters from Ohio.