The Gasoline Blues

[Tim McG]

I understand your simple arithmetic.

I'm asking you as a business, are oil companies not entitled to make an 8.5% profit? You seem to be saying no. I say yes. It's not an unrealistic percentage for any business.

Their desire to make a profit isn't driving the prices up (as I keep stating and you keep refuting, their profit margin has remained the same), it's the price of crude that's driving the gas prices up.

OK.

So you think it is perfectly acceptable to charge inflated prices to manipulate that 8.5% in to exorbitant profit making? Really?

Because that, most assuredly, is what is happening here.

Edited July 2, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Aggie87]

Speculation is only part of the problem here. The fact still remains that oil companies are charging way more than they need to in order to be a profitable business.

Disagree. Show me how that's a fact.

Let's be honest here. If the cost of doing business goes up, the profits would naturally sprink, yes? In the case of the oil companies, as the cost of doing business goes up they are amking more money than ever before. How is that even possible? I think it is because of a money grab.

I think you mean shrink instead of sprink (?). If the cost of business goes up (i.e. the cost of a barrel of crude goes quadruples), the oil companies are simply passing those costs along to consumers. They're keeping the same profit margin.

Now I don't know all the math in the world but that sure sounds like the system is being manipulated. And how do we know those speculators aren't doing what they are doing to help the oil companies as well as themselves? One hand washes the other, both parties make bucket loads of money.

I agree the system is being manipulated. But it always has been.

[Tim McG]

Speculation is only part of the problem here. The fact still remains that oil companies are charging way more than they need to in order to be a profitable business.

Disagree. Show me how that's a fact.

Let's be honest here. If the cost of doing business goes up, the profits would naturally sprink, yes? In the case of the oil companies, as the cost of doing business goes up they are amking more money than ever before. How is that even possible? I think it is because of a money grab.

I think you mean shrink instead of sprink (?). If the cost of business goes up (i.e. the cost of a barrel of crude goes quadruples), the oil companies are simply passing those costs along to consumers. They're keeping the same profit margin.

Now I don't know all the math in the world but that sure sounds like the system is being manipulated. And how do we know those speculators aren't doing what they are doing to help the oil companies as well as themselves? One hand washes the other, both parties make bucket loads of money.

I agree the system is being manipulated. But it always has been.

Pardon my poor typing skills.

Once again, they are charging far more at the pump to manipulate that 8.5% into huge profits, Aggie.

It isn't the percentage it is the price per gallon.

Edited July 2, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Aggie87]

Look at the chart again, Goodspeak.

If you ELIMINATE the concept of profit altogether from the picture ( ), you would remove 8.5% of the cost of a gallon of gas.

For a gallon that costs you $4.00, this would eliminate 34 cents from your cost at the pump. Your price is now "only" $3.66.

You're still paying an exorbitant price, and yet NO company in the United States would be willing to produce that gallon of gas for you, since they can't make a penny and keep their business going.

[Tim McG]

Look at the chart again, Goodspeak.

If you ELIMINATE the concept of profit altogether from the picture ( ), you would remove 8.5% of the cost of a gallon of gas.

For a gallon that costs you $4.00, this would eliminate 34 cents from your cost at the pump. Your price is now "only" $3.66.

You're still paying an exorbitant price, and yet NO company in the United States would be willing to produce that gallon of gas for you, since they can't make a penny and keep their business going.

You don't know that for certain, Aggie.

A chart will not and cannot decipher the back door deals and manipulation of the market.

Further, it stands to reason that as the cost of doing business goes up, the profits shrink. With the oil companies quite the opposite is true. At what point, Aggie, can we expect a given company to start absorbing the cost of doing business as opposed to always passing it along to the consumer?

They sure as hell make enough money to justify doing that don't they? So what does that tell you, Aggie? That the oil industry is just an innocent beneficiary of huge profits and the fact we pay nearly $5.00 bucks a gallon at the pump is just a happy coincidence? C'mon. Use your God given power to reason, Aggie.

Throw away your chart, Aggie. Look at the profits vs the cost of doing business...they simply do not justify themselves. On any level.

Edited July 2, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Aggie87]

You don't know that for certain, Aggie.

A chart will not and cannot decipher the back door deals and manipulation of the market.

Further, it stands to reason that as the cost of doing business goes up, the profits shrink. With the oil companies quite the opposite is true. At what point, Aggie, can we expect a given company to start absorbing the cost of doing business as opposed to always passing it along to the consumer?

They sure as hell make enough money to justify doing that don't they? So what does that tell you, Aggie? That the oil industry is just an innocent beneficiary of huge profits and fact we pay nearly $5.00 bucks a gallon at the pump is just a happy coincidence?

Throw away your chart, Aggie. Look at the profits vs the cost of doing business...they simply do not justify themselves. On any level.

If you can figure out the back door deals going on, more power to you. Aim your anger there, and at OPEC & speculators.

It does *NOT* stand to reason that as the cost of doing business goes up, profits shrink, in this case. Manufacturers regularly pass along price increases to consumers.

Are you saying by the same token that if the cost of steel goes up, the price of cars and buildings should remain constant??

Edited July 2, 2008 by Aggie87

[Tim McG]

You don't know that for certain, Aggie.

A chart will not and cannot decipher the back door deals and manipulation of the market.

Further, it stands to reason that as the cost of doing business goes up, the profits shrink. With the oil companies quite the opposite is true. At what point, Aggie, can we expect a given company to start absorbing the cost of doing business as opposed to always passing it along to the consumer?

They sure as hell make enough money to justify doing that don't they? So what does that tell you, Aggie? That the oil industry is just an innocent beneficiary of huge profits and fact we pay nearly $5.00 bucks a gallon at the pump is just a happy coincidence?

Throw away your chart, Aggie. Look at the profits vs the cost of doing business...they simply do not justify themselves. On any level.

If you can figure out the back door deals going on, more power to you. Aim your anger there, and at OPEC & speculators.

It does *NOT* stand to reason that as the cost of doing business goes up, profits shrink. Can you tell me where it says that in any theory of economics?

Are you saying by the same token that if the cost of steel goes up, the price of cars and buildings should remain constant??

Simple math tells you that, Aggie.

As to the cost of steel, prices do and have gone up, but to the tune of Billions of dollars in profits? Those businesses are closing and laying off people, Aggie. Their profits have greatly diminished. Just ask the people at GM or Ford what they have done to curb costs.

Does the oil industry do this? Hell no. They have a commodity which they know we need to have in order to keep our jobs and survive. They also know they can charge whatever price they want to and nobody can or will stop them. $5.00 bucks a gallon says I'm right on this one, Aggie.

You like charts? I have one for you:

Edit: The red line is gasoline; the blue line is diesel fuel.

Source: Energy Information Administration

Show me where this says the oil industry is hurting relative to the cost of doing business.

Edited July 2, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Aggie87]

Simple math tells you that, Aggie.

As to the cost of steel, prices do and have gone up, but to the tune of Billions of dollars in profits? Those businesses are closing and laying off people, Aggie. Their profits have greatly diminished. Just ask the people at GM or Ford what they have done to curb costs.

Does the oil industry do this? Hell no. They have a commodity which they know we need to have in order to keep our jobs and survive. They also know they can charge whatever price they want to and nobody can or will stop them. $5.00 bucks a gallon says I'm right on this one, Aggie.

You like charts? I have one for you:

Source: Energy Information Administration

Show me where this says the oil industry is hurting relative to the cost of doing business.

Your chart shows that prices for gasoline have gone up. Alert the press!

The demand for gasoline hasn't gone down enough to hurt the oil companies. They keep producing gas because the demand is there. So they don't have to lay off people like GM or Ford.

[Tim McG]

Simple math tells you that, Aggie.

As to the cost of steel, prices do and have gone up, but to the tune of Billions of dollars in profits? Those businesses are closing and laying off people, Aggie. Their profits have greatly diminished. Just ask the people at GM or Ford what they have done to curb costs.

Does the oil industry do this? Hell no. They have a commodity which they know we need to have in order to keep our jobs and survive. They also know they can charge whatever price they want to and nobody can or will stop them. $5.00 bucks a gallon says I'm right on this one, Aggie.

You like charts? I have one for you:

Source: Energy Information Administration

Show me where this says the oil industry is hurting relative to the cost of doing business.

Your chart shows that prices for gasoline have gone up. Alert the press!

The demand for gasoline hasn't gone down enough to hurt the oil companies. They keep producing gas because the demand is there. So they don't have to lay off people like GM or Ford.

Aggie...they don't layoff people because they keep inflating the price of gasoline to pay them [hellooooo].

The demmand hasn't gone down but the cost of doing business has greatly increased. That should cut profit, not increase it.

$125 Billion dollars in profits, my friend. Free and clear, profits. That is, after their employees have been paid and all other expenses have been taken care of.

Nobody does business like this...especially failing or floundering businesses.

Edited July 2, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Jim Alfredson]

The demmand hasn't gone down but the cost of doing business has greatly increased. That should cut profit, not increase it.

Nobody does business like this...especially failing or floundering businesses.

Actually, everybody does business like this. If the cost of producing your product goes up, but there is still high demand for your product, do you say, "Oh well, I guess I'll only make 1% profit per unit instead of 8.5%"? HELL NO! You raise the price of your product so that your profit margins stay the same. That's called capitalism.

As Aggie has pointed out about a million times, the cost of gas is as high as it is because the cost of a barrell of crude oil has risen from $10 in the late 90s to over $140 today. Why oil has risen that high is another thing altogether and quite possibly is partly because of the oil companies themselves, but there is no proof of that (right now).

If the cost of a barrell of crude oil was still $10 and they were charging $4.00 per gallon of gas, then you'd have an argument that the profits of the oil companies are outrageous.

[BruceH]

Wow. $4.00-a-gallon gas. That would be so nice.

[catesta]

Simple math tells you that, Aggie.

As to the cost of steel, prices do and have gone up, but to the tune of Billions of dollars in profits? Those businesses are closing and laying off people, Aggie. Their profits have greatly diminished. Just ask the people at GM or Ford what they have done to curb costs.

Does the oil industry do this? Hell no. They have a commodity which they know we need to have in order to keep our jobs and survive. They also know they can charge whatever price they want to and nobody can or will stop them. $5.00 bucks a gallon says I'm right on this one, Aggie.

You like charts? I have one for you:

Source: Energy Information Administration

Show me where this says the oil industry is hurting relative to the cost of doing business.

Your chart shows that prices for gasoline have gone up. Alert the press!

The demand for gasoline hasn't gone down enough to hurt the oil companies. They keep producing gas because the demand is there. So they don't have to lay off people like GM or Ford.

Aggie...they don't layoff people because they keep inflating the price of gasoline to pay them [hellooooo].

The demmand hasn't gone down but the cost of doing business has greatly increased. That should cut profit, not increase it.

$125 Billion dollars in profits, my friend. Free and clear, profits. That is, after their employees have been paid and all other expenses have been taken care of.

Nobody does business like this...especially failing or floundering businesses.

I think Exxon Mobil for 2007 had somewhere around a 9 or 10% margin. That is on over $400 billion in revenue.

Your argument that they're taking more profits is wrong, the percentage has stayed about the same.

If costs go up, the business has to pass those increases on to the consumer and that is what has happened here.

The oil industry has the luxury of passing on those costs because demand is not going to drop off anytime soon.

It's not just oil...

Checked the price of wheat lately? You think oil has gone up, wheat prices have more than trippled.

How about corn? Up 80% this last year.

Now I see where a turkey farm is doing layoffs because the price of corn has become too high.

What happened?

The turkey grower knows people are not going to pay $25 a lb. for turkey so he needs to reduce operating costs and maybe suspend production until the corn market adjusts.

[connoisseur series500]

Now I don't know all the math in the world but that sure sounds like the system is being manipulated. And how do we know those speculators aren't doing what they are doing to help the oil companies as well as themselves? One hand washes the other, both parties make bucket loads of money.

Huh? Speculators in league with the oil companies?

Paranoia at its finest.

Speculators are out for themselves: they hope to gain a profit. I don't see how it behooves oil companies to buy up oil futures other than as hedge strategies. They also likely short oil also as a hedge strategy.

Oil companies can affect the price of oil by slowing down their refineries. Other than that, I don't think they are involved. OPEC affects oil prices via public statements and production. But it is the speculators who move the oil price the most.

[Tim McG]

The demmand hasn't gone down but the cost of doing business has greatly increased. That should cut profit, not increase it.

Nobody does business like this...especially failing or floundering businesses.

Actually, everybody does business like this. If the cost of producing your product goes up, but there is still high demand for your product, do you say, "Oh well, I guess I'll only make 1% profit per unit instead of 8.5%"? HELL NO! You raise the price of your product so that your profit margins stay the same. That's called capitalism.

As Aggie has pointed out about a million times, the cost of gas is as high as it is because the cost of a barrell of crude oil has risen from $10 in the late 90s to over $140 today. Why oil has risen that high is another thing altogether and quite possibly is partly because of the oil companies themselves, but there is no proof of that (right now).

If the cost of a barrell of crude oil was still $10 and they were charging $4.00 per gallon of gas, then you'd have an argument that the profits of the oil companies are outrageous.

Well, I have to disagree , Jim.

As I have stated before, companies whose cost of doing business outstrips their ability to keep the same profit margin as before, cut costs by laying off employees, downsizing company operations, hike insurance premiums and, yes, pass some of that on to the consumer via price increases. In a worst case scenario, they shut the business down completely.

But I cannot think of one instance where any company has turned enormous profits when the cost of doing business has doubled or tripled.

Additionally, as I have already said, the cost of crude does not and cannot immediately translate to a spike in price at the pump. That crude oil has not yet been refined and shipped out for consumers to purchase yet. We are paying in advance of that expenditure and will pay it again when that oil comes to us as gasoline at the pump. The oil companies are making record profits because oil costs more? This makes absolutely no sense at all. If anything, the profits would shrink and, like most companies in America, they would curb the costs through various other means.

Increased cost of the raw product to do business does not equal huge profits. It can't. Well, unless of course, you grossly inflate the price of your product to cover for the loss due to cash outflow.

If GM or Ford or Microsoft or [insert company name] did this, they would be out of business inside of a year. Oil companies do this as a matter of course because they can.

As I asked before, at what point can we expect a given company to absorb the cost of doing business? The answer with Big Oil is obvious: They are going to milk this thing for all they can get...just like the speculators are. That is why a gallon of gas costs so much. How else do we explain the record profits at a time with the non-refined product costs so much? That 8.5% argument is only a smoke screen for the real issue: The oil companies have a commodity they know we need and they will charge anything they want because of that.

That is greed, Jim. Pure and simple.

Edited July 2, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

Now I don't know all the math in the world but that sure sounds like the system is being manipulated. And how do we know those speculators aren't doing what they are doing to help the oil companies as well as themselves? One hand washes the other, both parties make bucket loads of money.

Huh? Speculators in league with the oil companies?

Paranoia at its finest.

Speculators are out for themselves: they hope to gain a profit. I don't see how it behooves oil companies to buy up oil futures other than as hedge strategies. They also likely short oil also as a hedge strategy.

Oil companies can affect the price of oil by slowing down their refineries. Other than that, I don't think they are involved. OPEC affects oil prices via public statements and production. But it is the speculators who move the oil price the most.

I see.

So these speculators are refining their own oil?

Without a place to sell the stuff they wouldn't make a dime. The two are irrevocably linked, my friend.

Oil companies can also affect price by arbitrarily raising the cost at the pump before that more expensive crude is refined....which is exactly what they are doing even as I type. They are not absorbing the cost of doing business. And, like the speculators, are in for themselves, too. Pure profit, no responsibility for how that affects the people and companies who depend on their product to survive. They simply do not care about anything other than protecting their profit margin.

In short: Greed.

Edited July 2, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

Simple math tells you that, Aggie.

As to the cost of steel, prices do and have gone up, but to the tune of Billions of dollars in profits? Those businesses are closing and laying off people, Aggie. Their profits have greatly diminished. Just ask the people at GM or Ford what they have done to curb costs.

Does the oil industry do this? Hell no. They have a commodity which they know we need to have in order to keep our jobs and survive. They also know they can charge whatever price they want to and nobody can or will stop them. $5.00 bucks a gallon says I'm right on this one, Aggie.

You like charts? I have one for you:

Source: Energy Information Administration

Show me where this says the oil industry is hurting relative to the cost of doing business.

Your chart shows that prices for gasoline have gone up. Alert the press!

The demand for gasoline hasn't gone down enough to hurt the oil companies. They keep producing gas because the demand is there. So they don't have to lay off people like GM or Ford.

Aggie...they don't layoff people because they keep inflating the price of gasoline to pay them [hellooooo].

The demmand hasn't gone down but the cost of doing business has greatly increased. That should cut profit, not increase it.

$125 Billion dollars in profits, my friend. Free and clear, profits. That is, after their employees have been paid and all other expenses have been taken care of.

Nobody does business like this...especially failing or floundering businesses.

I think Exxon Mobil for 2007 had somewhere around a 9 or 10% margin. That is on over $400 billion in revenue.

Your argument that they're taking more profits is wrong, the percentage has stayed about the same.

If costs go up, the business has to pass those increases on to the consumer and that is what has happened here.

The oil industry has the luxury of passing on those costs because demand is not going to drop off anytime soon.

It's not just oil...

Checked the price of wheat lately? You think oil has gone up, wheat prices have more than trippled.

How about corn? Up 80% this last year.

Now I see where a turkey farm is doing layoffs because the price of corn has become too high.

What happened?

The turkey grower knows people are not going to pay $25 a lb. for turkey so he needs to reduce operating costs and maybe suspend production until the corn market adjusts.

The percentage has stayed the same but the price oil companies charge has increased 100% in retail cost to us since last year alone.

Farm products go up and down due to weather/drought or pest infestation or the cost of fetilizer....and the cost of putting deisel fuel in their farm equipment in order to do business. Corn, in specific, is also being used for the creating of alternative fuels, sugars as well as feed. Any dip in production due to the items I mentioned will cause the price to soar.

These guys can't charge enormous amounts of money to cover for that like the oil companies can for gasoline. They are forced to cutback, layoff or let the land go unused.

The difference is, we cannot do without oil....but I'm fairly certain we could do without the occasional turkey.

[Aggie87]

Well, I have to disagree , Jim.

As I have stated before, companies whose cost of doing business outstrips their ability to keep the same profit margin as before, cut costs by laying off employees, downsizing company operations, hike insurance premiums and, yes, pass some of that on to the consumer via price increases. In a worst case senario, they shut the business down completely.

But I cannot think of one instance where any companiy has turned enormous profits when the cost of doing business has doubled or tripled.

Oil companies are one instance right now. They're simply passing on their increased cost of raw material to you the consumer, while maintaining their same profit margin - not increasing it.

If GM or Ford or Microsoft or [insert company name] did this, they would be out of business insde of a year. Oil companies do this as a matter of course because they can.

GM or Ford can't do this because people would simply not buy new cars, but hang on to their old ones for alot longer. The demand would go down. The oil industry is different because the demand doesn't go down. They CAN pass along their increased cost (due to the increased cost of their raw material) of doing business to us and we pay it. They don't HAVE to lay off anyone or decrease their profit margin from 8.5% to 6% or something (note - a reduction from 8.5% to 6% profit on a 4.00 gallon of gas would only decrease the pump price by 10 cents, so you're still payin the exorbitant price as I mentioned earlier, regardless of profit margin).

As I asked before, at what point can we expect a given company to absorb the cost of doing business? The answer with Big Oil is obvious: They are going to milk this thing for all they can get...just like the speculators are. That is why a gallon of gas costs so much. How else do we explain the record profits at a time with the nonrefined product costs so much? That 8.5% argument is only a smoke screen for the real issue: The oil companies have a commodity they know we need and they will charge anything they want because of that.

That is greed, Jim. Pure and simple.

You're so far off base here it's silly. Take away ALL of their profit and you still pay $3.66 instead of $4.00. WITH NO PROFIT TO THE COMPANIES. Their profit is clearly not the biggest chunk of what you pay at the pump.

[Tim McG]

Well, I have to disagree , Jim.

As I have stated before, companies whose cost of doing business outstrips their ability to keep the same profit margin as before, cut costs by laying off employees, downsizing company operations, hike insurance premiums and, yes, pass some of that on to the consumer via price increases. In a worst case senario, they shut the business down completely.

But I cannot think of one instance where any companiy has turned enormous profits when the cost of doing business has doubled or tripled.

Oil companies are one instance right now. They're simply passing on their increased cost of raw material to you the consumer, while maintaining their same profit margin - not increasing it.

If GM or Ford or Microsoft or [insert company name] did this, they would be out of business insde of a year. Oil companies do this as a matter of course because they can.

GM or Ford can't do this because people would simply not buy new cars, but hang on to their old ones for alot longer. The demand would go down. The oil industry is different because the demand doesn't go down. They CAN pass along their increased cost (due to the increased cost of their raw material) of doing business to us and we pay it. They don't HAVE to lay off anyone or decrease their profit margin from 8.5% to 6% or something (note - a reduction from 8.5% to 6% profit on a 4.00 gallon of gas would only decrease the pump price by 10 cents, so you're still payin the exorbitant price as I mentioned earlier, regardless of profit margin).

As I asked before, at what point can we expect a given company to absorb the cost of doing business? The answer with Big Oil is obvious: They are going to milk this thing for all they can get...just like the speculators are. That is why a gallon of gas costs so much. How else do we explain the record profits at a time with the nonrefined product costs so much? That 8.5% argument is only a smoke screen for the real issue: The oil companies have a commodity they know we need and they will charge anything they want because of that.

That is greed, Jim. Pure and simple.

You're so far off base here it's silly. Take away ALL of their profit and you still pay $3.66 instead of $4.00. WITH NO PROFIT TO THE COMPANIES. Their profit is clearly not the biggest chunk of what you pay at the pump.

Aggie...these guys are protecting a profit margin and making untold billions of dollars in the process. Any legitimate company, one which cares about Americans and American business will temper that with the reality of finding other ways to curb costs without damaging the economy and the people's ability to live within their means. A company motivated by profit and profit only, does not reinvest those obscene profits back into the company thereby avoiding constant price increases. They simply do not care.

Again, these price increases are coming in advance of the crude oil not yet ready for consumption. Again, that means we are paying for that increase TWICE. Again, that contributes to the over all billions of dollars they are getting.

$4.00 bucks...where are you seeing that? It hasn't been that low since mid-spring in California. Currently, [edit] $4.73 a gallon. That would be more than a full dollar more that your $3.66 price.

Again, 8.5% per gallon is very little money. I don't know about you but my truck needs more than a gallon to get me through the week. That 10 cents adds up to one helluva lot of money saved over a year's time, Aggie. Bank on it. Additionally, that 10 cents creates one helluva lot of profit for the oil companies times $1.25 Trillion dollars worth of business in the space of only four months.

Again....it is not the profit margin, Aggie...it's the cost per gallon.

Edited July 2, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Aggie87]

Again....it is not the profit margin, Aggie...it's the cost per gallon.

Which is controlled by the cost of a barrel of crude oil coming into this country moreso than anything else. NOT oil companies profit margins.

Your whole argument about profits has been irrelevant.

edit - cost per gallon of gas here was $3.94 this morning. Up from $3.89 the past few days. Your prices for EVERYTHING are higher in California.

edit 2 - that 10 cents per gallon doesn't add up to THAT much. If you fill up weekly with 15 gallons of gas, that's $1.50. Multiplied by 52 weeks, that's $78. PER YEAR. Bank on that.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Aggie87

[Jim Alfredson]

Ok, so 8.5% of $4.56 is $0.36. So if the oil companies suddenly decided they didn't want to make any profits at all and instead "help the American consumer", instead of paying $4.56 a gallon, you'd pay $4.20.

Whoopie.

Frankly, I'm over getting pissed off about it. Now we are being forced to make a change. Shit, if we had stuck with the fuel efficiency standards that Ford/Carter put into place back in the 1970s, we would've been off foreign oil by the late 80s.

There is no reason why cars shouldn't be getting at least 40mpg, if not 50, 60, or even 70. The technology has been here for a long time.

[catesta]

Goodspeak, you're not a professor of economics or business are you?

[connoisseur series500]

So these speculators are refining their own oil?

Without a place to sell the stuff they wouldn't make a dime. The two are irrevocably linked, my friend.

Speculators sell futures over the commodities exchange. There is no connection between the oil companies and individuals who go long on oil futures. They don't take physical delivery of the oil, but they help set the price of oil on the market. If there is a connection between the oil companies and the speculators, or if they are working together as you suggest, then it would be a violation of Federal laws. It would be called market manipulation. People have to be very careful about that.

Speculators aren't completely to blame for rising oil prices but they have definitely contributed to the quick runup of prices.

BTW, commodities are notoriously fickle, and oil companies went through their hard times too. I imagine they feel that their windfall profits help to offset the slow times, of which they experienced several before this spike up on oil. I'm not necessarily defending them but I don't see a point in singling them out for abuse. I hope they will be using some of these windfall profits to increase exploration.

[connoisseur series500]

Goodspeak, you're not a professor of economics or business are you?

Nobel prize winner, actually.

[Jazzmoose]

Let me know when we get back to the whining instead of the arguing, guys!

[connoisseur series500]

Let me know when we get back to the whining instead of the arguing, guys!

Agg's fault!