Guest Mnytime Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 (edited) I am not saying that anyone who listens to Mobley and says he is no Coltrane gets it. That's a different subject, which I don't agree with as well. My point was more to your point that this had nothing to do with Jazz when musicians are just as competitive as everyone else is. The point still is there is a reason Coltrane was able to breakthrough in ways everyone else was not to the point he hovers over every Sax player since. It's his competitiveness his desire to keep pushing that envelope. Life is one big competition and that includes musicians and music. Oh some might not admit it or talk about it but musicians are must as competitive as any athlete for example. Also, yes we have envelopes and some larger than others but the difference between the winner and loser is the winner will find a way to push past his envelope and create a new envelope. In the future he might push through that new envelope as well or fall back to the old one depending on how much he wants to. Edited June 18, 2003 by Mnytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 To put this in terms of Jazz, Coltrane is Driver A and Mobley is Driver B. Sorry, but this is absolute, complete bullshit. These "number one at all costs" and "there is no second place" thoughts are fine for sports, but only for sports. Applying this reasoning in any form to music, or any other serious effort is absurd. Sports are one of the few areas in life where there is a clearly defined winner and loser. The only point to a sporting event is to determine who wins and who loses. Other than that, it's a totally meaningless event. To apply this kind of thinking to music, or any other endeavor just doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 (edited) To put this in terms of Jazz, Coltrane is Driver A and Mobley is Driver B. Sorry, but this is absolute, complete bullshit. These "number one at all costs" and "there is no second place" thoughts are fine for sports, but only for sports. Applying this reasoning in any form to music, or any other serious effort is absurd. Sports are one of the few areas in life where there is a clearly defined winner and loser. The only point to a sporting event is to determine who wins and who loses. Other than that, it's a totally meaningless event. To apply this kind of thinking to music, or any other endeavor just doesn't work. Though that is not what I was saying in my use of Coltrane and Mobley I don't happen to agree with the rest of your ranting post. Life is to short to sleepwalk through life as many in this world are satisfied in doing. To many people are satisfied with getting by without a challange or acomplishing anything in life. That doesn't fit my personality and never will. I would love to hear your explanation for cutting contests? Anyone that thinks there is no competition in music hasn't been paying attention that well. Edited June 19, 2003 by Mnytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Life is to short to sleepwalk through life as many in this world are satisfied in doing. To many people are satisfied with getting by without a challange or acomplishing anything in life. That doesn't fit my personality and never will. I guess I didn't make my point very well (and my apologies to those frightened by words like "bullshit"; I didn't realize that I was "ranting"...), as I really don't see what your response has to do with my post. My point was that sports is set up as a simplified version of life, where clear-cut winners and losers are easily determined. Any use of sports as an analogy for life is doomed to failure; it's going to be even more simplistic than other analogies because of that simplicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 (edited) Life is to short to sleepwalk through life as many in this world are satisfied in doing. To many people are satisfied with getting by without a challange or acomplishing anything in life. That doesn't fit my personality and never will. I guess I didn't make my point very well (and my apologies to those frightened by words like "bullshit"; I didn't realize that I was "ranting"...), as I really don't see what your response has to do with my post. My point was that sports is set up as a simplified version of life, where clear-cut winners and losers are easily determined. Any use of sports as an analogy for life is doomed to failure; it's going to be even more simplistic than other analogies because of that simplicity. Oh don't worry you don't come close to scaring me. Though thanks for the laugh. I not going to bother with the rest of your post, which as you can expect I don't agree with. Edited June 19, 2003 by Mnytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Moose kinda beat me to it, but I've got a problem comparing the race car analogy to Coltrane and Mobley. To me, sports and competition is one thing and art is another. Both Coltrane and Mobley are great artists; one cannot necessarily say that one is greater than the other. Their music represents the spectrum from which they express their lives. Who's better, Van Gogh or Gaugin? It's a silly question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris olivarez Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 It's something you can debate from now until the cows come home and never reach a resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 After all that, I'm getting dizzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 (edited) Moose kinda beat me to it, but I've got a problem comparing the race car analogy to Coltrane and Mobley. To me, sports and competition is one thing and art is another. Both Coltrane and Mobley are great artists; one cannot necessarily say that one is greater than the other. Their music represents the spectrum from which they express their lives. Who's better, Van Gogh or Gaugin? It's a silly question. Then explain why people bother to list their favorites or even have favorites if they didn't think one musician is better than another? We all do it. I would also like to point I didn't say Mobley was a bad musician. I made it very clear I thought he wasn excellent musician. Please explain why Jazz musicians have/had cutting contests? I am still waiting for an actual response? Why Sonny Rollins felt the need to have to try to cut Bean? It's the same competitive nature or desire that is in athletes and every other person that actually gets anywhere in life. Edited June 19, 2003 by Mnytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Larsen Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 These "number one at all costs" and "there is no second place" thoughts are fine for sports, but only for sports. Applying this reasoning in any form to music, or any other serious effort is absurd. Sports are one of the few areas in life where there is a clearly defined winner and loser. The only point to a sporting event is to determine who wins and who loses. Other than that, it's a totally meaningless event. To apply this kind of thinking to music, or any other endeavor just doesn't work. By any chance does this opinion have to do with the fact that you are currently 171 posts behind AfricaBrass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 These "number one at all costs" and "there is no second place" thoughts are fine for sports, but only for sports. Applying this reasoning in any form to music, or any other serious effort is absurd. Sports are one of the few areas in life where there is a clearly defined winner and loser. The only point to a sporting event is to determine who wins and who loses. Other than that, it's a totally meaningless event. To apply this kind of thinking to music, or any other endeavor just doesn't work. By any chance does this opinion have to do with the fact that you are currently 171 posts behind AfricaBrass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 If I may, there's a couple of points I'd like to contribute. In sports, the ideal is for participants to achieve higher levels of play in opposition to one another. That is the real game: refinement of skill, "pushing one's own envelope" as Sangrey said. The glorious accomplishments of the Champion are relative to the quality of the opposition (think of all those lopsided Superbowls: boring). Musicians do this by playing with people who are farther along the path then themselves, thus creating a situation (sometimes painful) that challenges them to rise to the occasion. To try another music analogy (courtesy of Kenny Werner), think of Art Tatum vs. Thelonious Monk. If all it were about was great piano playing, why would you listen to anyone but Tatum? He's the champ. But then, as we know, Monk brought forth the (ugly) beauty that was inside of him, much to our benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Moose kinda beat me to it, but I've got a problem comparing the race car analogy to Coltrane and Mobley. To me, sports and competition is one thing and art is another. Both Coltrane and Mobley are great artists; one cannot necessarily say that one is greater than the other. Their music represents the spectrum from which they express their lives. Who's better, Van Gogh or Gaugin? It's a silly question. Then explain why people bother to list their favorites or even have favorites if they didn't think one musician is better than another? We all do it. I would also like to point I didn't say Mobley was a bad musician. I made it very clear I thought he wasn excellent musician. Please explain why Jazz musicians have/had cutting contests? I am still waiting for an actual response? Why Sonny Rollins felt the need to have to try to cut Bean? It's the same competitive nature or desire that is in athletes and every other person that actually gets anywhere in life. I most certainly do list my favorites. These are MY favorites. Certain poets are MY favorites; certain musicians, certain artists. That doesn't mean they are better than any other. It means that they COMMUNICATE to me; that their art finds an analog to my own personal experiences. My polls on this board are for fun. You can't really rank musicians or artists. As for cutting sessions, that's another topic. I listen to Johnny Griffin's "Blowing Session," which apparently was a cutting session and it's an awful cd in my opinion. Cutting sessions don't prove anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 (edited) If I may, there's a couple of points I'd like to contribute. In sports, the ideal is for participants to achieve higher levels of play in opposition to one another. That is the real game: refinement of skill, "pushing one's own envelope" as Sangrey said. The glorious accomplishments of the Champion are relative to the quality of the opposition (think of all those lopsided Superbowls: boring). Musicians do this by playing with people who are farther along the path then themselves, thus creating a situation (sometimes painful) that challenges them to rise to the occasion. To try another music analogy (courtesy of Kenny Werner), think of Art Tatum vs. Thelonious Monk. If all it were about was great piano playing, why would you listen to anyone but Tatum? He's the champ. But then, as we know, Monk brought forth the (ugly) beauty that was inside of him, much to our benefit. Joe I think you are talking more from a fans point of view and not from those actually participating. Yes from a fans point of view those blowouts are boring but from the athletes point of view on the winning team that’s the ideal really. A win is a win of course but you want to dominate the other team physically and mentally. You want that other team to know they where beat. No excuses or luck involved. No wide right or wide left. When the Bills lost to the Giants you had all the talk about luck and the kicker lost the game and all that. But when The Boys spanked them there was no talk of that. They where completely outplayed from top to bottom. Edited June 19, 2003 by Mnytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 (edited) I was actually thinking of my own experience learning to play tennis in the last couple of years. As someone who wants to elevate his game, I'd like to play with people who are better than me. Of course I don't want to lose everytime either. That's just human nature, the ego, a survival instinct and all that. It's okay, because not wanting to feel the sting of defeat everytime out is an early incentive to work on my skills. But what I really want to experience is the feeling of joy and pleasure when the body's own wisdom takes over, and my actions are coming from a place of detachment, giving them a power and effectiveness that wasn't there when I was worried about winning the game. It's that Zen of sports thing. And that works best if my opponent can reach that state at the same time; then it becomes a beautiful sort of dance. The thing about professional sports is that big money is involved, and I think that skews the picture quite a bit. If a coach has a greatly improved NBA team, but doesn't produce championships, he still might get canned, even in as little as one year. Winning teams mean big revenues. That mindset then filters down to our society as a whole, and you end up with screaming parents on the sidelines at grade school soccer games. Where's the joy in that? On a sidenote, it's my opinion that the monsterous salaries paid to many professional athletes is a further reflection of our society's misplaced values. Especially when you consider how many teachers are getting cut right now. Also, this turned out to be a very instructive and revealing thread! Edited June 19, 2003 by Joe G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Lightning Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Here's a quote by the great photographer Philip Greenspun that summerizes my feelings toward the subject: "An ideal roll of film for me has 35 pictures of the same subject, all of them bad. These prove that I'm not afraid to experiment. And then one good picture. This proves that I'm not completely incompetent." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 By any chance does this opinion have to do with the fact that you are currently 171 posts behind AfricaBrass? WHAT????? I demand a recount!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 Oh don't worry you don't come close to scaring me. Though thanks for the laugh. I not going to bother with the rest of your post, which as you can expect I don't agree with. Whatever, dude. I suppose you've added me to your enemies list now. Oh well; such is life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 (edited) Oh don't worry you don't come close to scaring me. Though thanks for the laugh.  I not going to bother with the rest of your post, which as you can expect I don't agree with. Whatever, dude. I suppose you've added me to your enemies list now. Oh well; such is life... Enemies List? Thanks for yet another laugh. First you post about your post scaring others, which had to be a joke it was so funny. Now your implying that I would waste time creating an Enemies list and than waste even more time bothering to put you on it. Someone thinks very highly of their unimaginative swearing and post. Edited June 20, 2003 by Mnytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pryan Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 (edited) Winning teams mean big revenues. That mindset then filters down to our society as a whole, and you end up with screaming parents on the sidelines at grade school soccer games. Where's the joy in that? A winning team does not translate into big revenues. It may help, sure, but it's definitely not the sole cause or even a cause at all in some cases. Look at the Florida Marlins from a few years back: they stocked up big-time on free agents in the winter, setting records for most cash spent, I believe; they proceed to win the World Series, and almost immediately after they started a massive spending purge, due to the team losing vast sums of money, and said purge basically decimates the team. The Ottawa Senators are another example: they actually declared bankruptcy during the season and admitted outright that they might not be able to pay the player's salaries. But, ironically, they had the best record in the NHL this year and nearly made it to the Stanley Cup finals. I agree with the latter half of your statement, though. There's a lot of parents these days who want to live "through" their children. I've seen it personally and on tv documentaries, etc. It's pretty sick when you think about it. Edited June 20, 2003 by pryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 I don't equate music with sports (or, to open a can of worms, race car driving with sports), but this has made for a fasinating study of one aspect of Mnytime's personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 I don't equate music with sports (or, to open a can of worms, race car driving with sports), but this has made for a fasinating study of one aspect of Mnytime's personality. I agree, Paul. As admirable as his personal story and that of his parents is, I have to say that it makes me wonder whether, in instilling a tremendous desire to work and succeed, Mny has also been instilled with the traits that lead to those parents who scream on the sidelines (let alone attack umpires). Sorry, Mny, but I have to tell you, that is the way you are appearing here. Guess I'm headed for that mythical enemies list, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 (edited) Guess I'm headed for that mythical enemies list, huh?   I'm pretty sure that I've vaulted past Moose on that list. Edited June 21, 2003 by connoisseur series500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 C'mon, we all love Mny. Moose and Mny need to make up. I know one thing... I don't want to play one-on-one with ya!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 (edited) I don't equate music with sports (or, to open a can of worms, race car driving with sports), but this has made for a fasinating study of one aspect of Mnytime's personality. I agree, Paul. As admirable as his personal story and that of his parents is, I have to say that it makes me wonder whether, in instilling a tremendous desire to work and succeed, Mny has also been instilled with the traits that lead to those parents who scream on the sidelines (let alone attack umpires). Sorry, Mny, but I have to tell you, that is the way you are appearing here. Guess I'm headed for that mythical enemies list, huh? What I find fascinating is how you people are so fixated on when I was a kid. One who fixated on my IQ, seems to think I still act like a 12-year-old while he is currently acting as an insecure and jealous 9-year-old. Who also enjoys mocking my health. Another one now seems to think I am some crazed animal that is going to yell at my kids and attack umpires. He seems to forget that those parents are the losers who never accomplished anything in life and need to live through their kids. I don't need to live through anyone. As long as my children are healthy and happy, I am happy. I don't even care if they play sports. Thank You for showing me how wrong I was to share anything personal with you. You can be sure that I will never share anything personal on any board ever again. Edited June 21, 2003 by Mnytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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