Benny Goodman at Carnegie Hall

[Christiern]

Thanks, Allen.

[clinthopson]

My very first lp was the Cartnegie Hall concert. I wore it out.

I then bought a later lp version which completely changed the order of the show. It plugged in the small group number all over the place rether than leaving them in the original order.

I have delayed getting a new cd of the concert because I've heard mixed reports.

What would you all recommend?

[Christiern]

Clint, did you perchance give your worn-out discs to Phil Schaap before Columbia dumped him?

[AllenLowe]

well, I only did one cut - one thing we should remember, and give Schaap credit for, is that the initial transfers were very good - this is vital, because without that even the best restoration work is limited - I tend to be conservative on these things, but not as conservative as Schaap - I always leave some surface noise, as it is impossible to eliminate without losing the upper frequencies and presence and space - and you would be surprised how much recorded info there is, even on very old recordings -

[clinthopson]

Clint, did you perchance give your worn-out discs to Phil Schaap before Columbia dumped him?

I wondered what happened to those discs.

[Harold_Z]

Allen - I received the disc today and just gave it a listen. Obviously the first track is the Phil Schaap reissue. I have to say I like the 2nd of the three tracks the best. the third doesn't have the highs the 2nd does and the rhythm section jumps out better on the 2nd track. I think I can also hear better separation on the horns/reeds on the 2nd track as opposed to the 3rd. Separation is good on the 1st track too, but the lower noise level on the 2nd track makes it more apparent for me.

Thanks for letting me participate in this.

[Harold_Z]

By seperation, I mean in the sense of being able to discern individual section voices as opposed to just, for example, a trumpet sectiom. This is just to clarify to anyone who's wondering - I'm NOT hearing stereo where there isn't any.

Edited April 8, 2005 by Harold_Z

[DrJ]

Weighing in late. Schaap may be an idiot, don't really know anything about him personally, but as far as his version of the Carnegie Hall stuff - I like it a lot, and disliked the earlier CD - flat as a pancake.

Guess my ears are screwed.

[AllenLowe]

what you are hearing as separation has a lot to do with instruments at different frequencies; the space in a recording is really the separation and preservation of different frequencies. Chances are that the more high frequenices left in , the more space (or air) you will hear between instruments or sections -

Edited April 9, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Christiern]

We have just spotted Schaap and, psychic me, I am telling him "That's the guy's gonna mess up your concert tapes."

[Big Al]

Holy sh**, I can't believe I forgot to weigh in on the "remastered" disc, as produced by Allen. My humblest apologies!

Obviously, I don't have it at work, and I don't want to put off waiting until I get home, cuz then another three months'll pass by before I remember that I forgot to comment on 'em.

The thing that stands out the most is how warm the recording sounded, and the bass sounded so much more prominent (quite a risk, when you consider that Benny’s brother supposedly wasn’t that good to begin with. I don’t know, though; I thought he swung alright). If there was any surface noise, I barely noticed it.

Great job, Allen. I only wish I could hear you rework the whole CD!

[AllenLowe]

thanks - it takes a little work, but CEDAR is a powerful and user-friendly tool. It also helps to understand EQ and, last but not least, you need a reliable set of monitors -

[Christiern]

Allen, I just realized that I have also been remiss. I recall hearing a distinct improvement, but will listen again to be more specific. Sorry to have taken so long--thanks for jarring my memory, Big Al.

BTW, I, too, wish you could de-Schaap the whole CD. Somebody on the Hoffman board was complaining about his having "ruined" a reissue--why has it taken so long for people to discover (or bring up the fact) that his ears are clogged?

[AllenLowe]

not a problem Chris - I'd be happy to re-do the whole thing, but for some reason Sony and Phil are not asking...

[RZangpo2]

There are several threads on this subject. I posted this question in another thread but realized afterwards that the thread title referred to Ellington at Newport, not Goodman at Carnegie Hall. So I'm repeating my question here. Apologies for the duplicate posts.

Here's my question: those who've compared versions seem to agree that the Definitive and Avid issues are both better than the Sony. But between the Definitive and Avid issues themselves, which is better? Has anyone heard both? Please let me know before I spend more $$$ on this music!!!

[papsrus]

I'm reading this stuff about this Schaap chap and so pulled out my copy of the CD and found it was "restored" and "premastered" by a Bjorn Almstedt using the same CEDAR software Allen uses and issued in 2006 on the Jasmine label -- after this thread had been put to bed.

It sounds great to me, but I was wondering if Allen (or anyone else) had you heard this version, and if so what are your thoughts?

[Lazaro Vega]

That's the one I want to get.

[Christiern]

Has there ever been an apology from Phil or Columbia? They really ought to offer a refund, trade-in, or something palatable. A lawsuit from the Goodman estate might also not be out of order. I had given away my set (for which I myself ought to apologize to a friend), but I was subsequently punished when I ordered what I thought was a restored release and found that it was that Schaap abomination.

As you can see, I never broke the skin-wrap...

[Big Al]

I love the "Definitive" version, but I've never heard the "Avid" version. The "Definitive" version is aptly named, IMHO.

[Christiern]

This just in from George Avakian.

Dear Chris –

Just received word that Schaap made two major goofs in his Goodman Carnegie Hall mastering – he omitted nearly 30 minutes of I Got Rhythm and there is a groove skip near the end of Buck Clayton’s third chorus on Honeysuckle Rose – inexplicable since he presumably used Howard Scott’s tapes that Benny had given Howard. But anything can happen with Schaap.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx*

George

*Last sentence witheld by CA

BTW, here's a link to a pertinent 3-month-old entry on my blog.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Christiern

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

BTW, here's a link to a pertinent 3-month-old entry on my blog.

Link doesn't work, Chris.

MG

[Christiern]

That's odd. I just clicked on it in your response, and it took me right there!

Try again.

BTW do I owe Barbara Woodhouse to you? If so, thanks and please note that I made the change. Which gives me an opportunity to test another link.

[medjuck]

Does any cd release of the concert contain the missing 30 minutes of I Got Rhythm?

[ejp626]

3 minutes I can buy. 30 minutes?!? Really?

[jazzbo]

30 seconds I bet.