Wayne Shorter in the 80's

[Guest akanalog]

i have been listening to a lot of live wayne shorter from the mid to late 1980s lately (post WR i guess) and i have been very impressed. i am not familiar with mr. shorter's actual album releases from this time(phantom navigator and atlantis, i guess) but the live material is great. it has a definite 80s feel with a lot of cheesy synth sounds (like a lot of breathy fake human voice sounding synth patches) and electric bass, but the music is not really overly commercial at all. it is well done and interesting fusion, does 80s style and it definitley leans more to the jazz side than anything else. seems like mr. shorter used a revolving cast of characters, but terri lynne carrington on drums and jim beard on drums seem to be frequent contributors. bassists include al johnson, gary willis and some guy named keith jones who i have never heard of but it pretty great. and mr. shorter does some updated versions of some of his own tracks including a few 60s numbers (think i heard a footprints in there) and it is explorative and pretty loose jazz, just down with 80s instruments. a lot deeper to me, than what WR had been doing a few years earlier or what miles or herbie were doing at around this time period.

any feelings on this stuff?

[kdd]

Atlantis is brilliant, among the best he's ever done. Joy Ryder is quite nice as well, he's been revisting some of these tunes live lately. Phantom Navigater is OK, some nice stuff but it's a bit overwhelmed by some dated sounding synth stuff.

[Alon Marcus]

Wayne Shorter's work in the 80's is truly overlooked and what prooves it the most is the fact that no one even admits that it is overlooked.

I like Atlantis, Phantom Navigator, Joy Rider and High Life (which is actually from the 90's). Don't care much about "the electronic-cheesy-sound" stigma. It's just a matter of colors that he wanted to use. His improvisations and compositions are terrific and those who detract his work because of the "fusion era" are missing lots of great music.

[Michael Weiss]

It's just a matter of colors that he wanted to use. His improvisations and compositions are terrific and those who detract his work because of the "fusion era" are missing lots of great music.

You couldn't have put it better. You have to listen! - the composition, the structures, the solos. Sometimes it takes several repeated listenings before these things become apparent. People get distracted by the wrong things because they don't know how to listen to music.

All three Columbias are great. Joy Ryder's pieces are not quite as complex but still it's a must have. Phantom Navigator's compositions, like Atlantis are amazingly detailed and complex, not to mention beautiful, such as Mahogany Bird and Flagships. Forbidden Plan-It contains some masterful counterpoint.

High Life, represents to me the highest level of artistic expression - composition and improvisation - by one artist, in the 1990s.

[sidewinder]

High Life, represents to me the highest level of artistic expression - composition and improvisation - by one artist, in the 1990s.

Well said, Michael. I have just been listening to this one for the first time in a while (it's long been a favourite) and the quality of the compositions is astonishing. Amazingly 'elliptical' stuff, full of inner logic. I suspect that this is an album that will further increase in stature as the years go by.

[Stefan Wood]

Look, I love Wayne Shorter, and I do agree that his compositions on those lps are overlooked -- I listened to Phantom Navigator recently, and the tunes are great, but the 80's synthesizer and electric bass kills it for me for repeated listening. I can't filter it out. I don't usually have a bias towards particular instruments used in certain periods of music, but this is an exception. Perhaps it also has to do with recording for CBS, as I have heard live recordings which make for more interesting listening.

[Guest akanalog]

stefan, you are absolutely correct in the sense that i have many live wayne shorter recordings from the 80s and they are awesome. much much better than any of the albums. the albums are sort of stiff and composed sounding (though i think for "atlantis" at least, this was the point, wasn't it?). but the live stuff is great. definitely has an 80s sheen with cheesy synth patches and e-bass sometimes poppin away, but the compositions are interesting and the playing is good too. this was the 80s, the late 80s, and i can't imagine anyone was doing a better job of making "fusion" music than wayne shorter was. because this music was fusion-at least live. elements of rock and funk and jazz are all in there.

[bertrand]

I agree that this music is highly-underrated. I recently put Navigator in my iPod and it's been on heavy rotation since.

I agree with Stefan about the synthesizer gurgles, but I have learned over time to get past them, just as I learned to get past them with Weather Report (it wasn't always easy - Zawinul went overboard with that TONTO thing on Tale Spinnin').

I saw Wayne live in Paris on 3/17/87 during the Navigator tour, and it was this gig that made me realize how amazing he really was. In a way, it was this gig that changed everything for me. I would love to hear more live stuff from this tour, too bad only the studio album came out.

If Michael Cuscuna could get a hold of some good-quality private tapes, this would make a wonderful Mosiac select: some material from the Atlantis tour, and some from the Navigator tour. I'm not sure if he toured behing Joy Ryder.

Wayne has been playing some material from Joy Ryder with the current band, and also with the orchestras. It would be great if he were to dig up some of the Navigator material. The orchestra does a better job of achieving the full sound that Wayne was reaching for than the synths do (IMHO).

Maybe I'll toss the idea at Wayne at the next Monk competition.

Bertrand.

P.S. Some people seem to think of Atlantis as an electric album. Except for the bass and the opening track, it's all acoustic. No synths in sight.

Edited February 18, 2006 by bertrand

[mikeweil]

It's just a matter of colors that he wanted to use. His improvisations and compositions are terrific and those who detract his work because of the "fusion era" are missing lots of great music.

You couldn't have put it better. You have to listen! - the composition, the structures, the solos. Sometimes it takes several repeated listenings before these things become apparent. People get distracted by the wrong things because they don't know how to listen to music.

I wish someone would give him the opportunity to re-record all these with real instruments. I have a hard time to listen to these "cheesy" sounds. I'm pretty sure we then would experience something on the level of Gil Evans.

[mikeweil]

P.S. Some people seem to think of Atlantis as an electric album. Except for the bass and the opening track, it's all acoustic. No synths in sight.

Thanks for the hint - I'll check this one out.

[JSngry]

I wish someone would give him the opportunity to re-record all these with real instruments.

Not me. Real instruments couldn't make those sounds. Which may be your point, , but red is not blue, if you know what I mean.

[bertrand]

I don't want him to re-record the albums, but I would like to hear him play these pieces with the quartet and maybe an orchestra. A Wayne Shorter composition has not been fully explored and dissected just because it was recorded once, regardless of the instrumentation. There are many other pieces from throughout his career I would like to see him revisit, beginnning with 'The Albatross'.

Bertrand.

Edited February 18, 2006 by bertrand

[JSngry]

I may be one of the few people who feels this way, but I was actually disappointed in the way the "traditional" horn section sounded on Alegria. It hought they sounded drab, and, yes, "dated". I wanted to hear the broader colors that well-programmed/plaed electronic instruments can provide.

I can never find fault with a composer/arranger/orchestrator looking for new colors.

[Jazzdog]

Are any of those 80's cd's even comercially available right now?

What about the live stuff?

Anything?

[mikeweil]

I wish someone would give him the opportunity to re-record all these with real instruments.

Not me. Real instruments couldn't make those sounds. Which may be your point, , but red is not blue, if you know what I mean.

I do - it's just a matter of preference.

[jazzbo]

I hear what you guys are saying but. . .

This stuff just doesn't do much for me, even the half a dozen or so live eighties recordings I've gotten my hands on. I just don't enjoy listening to it, nothing really impresses me, the compositions, the playing, lots turn me off (the synthetic elements). It sort of exhibits clearly and inescapably the "cold snakey" elements of Wayne's work that I dislike in any era.

Ah well. Lots of other stuff to listen to.

[garthsj]

I hear what you guys are saying but. . .

This stuff just doesn't do much for me, even the half a dozen or so live eighties recordings I've gotten my hands on. I just don't enjoy listening to it, nothing really impresses me, the compositions, the playing, lots turn me off (the synthetic elements). It sort of exhibits clearly and inescapably the "cold snakey" elements of Wayne's work that I dislike in any era.

Ah well. Lots of other stuff to listen to.

Ahem ... well .... here goes! I just have to agree with the statement above. I know, I know .... but I have listened to a lot of jazz in my life, and I like to think of myself as a rather astute jazz appreciator, but try as I might, I have NEVER understood the mystique surrounding Wayne Shorter, in all of his phases. I do perhaps like his earliest stuff (on Vee-Jay) best, and then with Miles (but George Coleman, and obviously Trane, and even Sonny Stitt on tenor excites me more), but basically I find his improvisations boring and his tone grates on me. I even own most of his Blue Note albums (go figure ... collecting truly is a mania!). I have tried, seriously, I have tried, but to absolutley no avail. I have worried myself silly that I am aesthetically deficient, and have a tin ear; but I have finally come to the conclusion that for me, the emperor really has no clothes. I guess that I have just listened to too much Stan Getz, Benny Golson, or Dexter Gordon in my life .... BUT .. Hey! This is what makes art, right? We can't always agree on everything.

[GA Russell]

Garth, perhaps apropos of what you are saying, I listened to JuJu more than any other album last year, and I always found that the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. I enjoyed that album more than I enjoyed any of its songs individually.

[Guest akanalog]

well i am listening right now to wayne shorter live from lustenau, austria 3/21/8...

the band is

shorter-saxes

renee rosnes-keys

bernard wright-keys

keith jones-bass

terri lynne carrington-drums

and it is awesome! right now there is a smooth funky version of 'footprints" going, virtually unrecognizable as wayne toys with only the first few notes of the melody.

but anyways-also a smoking version of "beauty and the beast" with this keith jones guy doing some nice things.

for some reason this shorter and even late 80s miles goes down pretty well for me.

i have found joy ryder and atlantis for cheap on disc lately and don't really like either of them too much.

but live, the music takes on a different character. people here seem to disagree, but i think the songs have a lot more life and personality in a live setting. still that shorter touch, though.

compared to other music being done around this time in the jazz world, shorter was really doing his own thing. sure there were commercial trappings, but this is really some unique stuff and i think it stacks up VERY WELL against a lot of weather report's output (after heavy weather).

i would much rather listen to this stuff than live jaco/erskine WR, though i do dig the 83 hakim/bailey band a bit....