Early 20th century music - help, please.

[Jim R]

First of all, let me admit that I'm almost completely ignorant on this subject. I've heard a lot of old music here and there over the years, but I've never really focused on learning about it. As it relates to the development of jazz, I've read a bit in the past, but I didn't retain anything really, because I was always more interested in the music that came much later. Anyway, I'm not sure we have a discussion thread here about this (didn't find anything using "ragtime" as a keyword), so maybe my initial dumb question can lead to a worthwhile topic of discussion.

Okay, the inspiration for this thread is the fact that I'm a big fan of the PBS TV show, Antiques Roadshow. I used to deal in antiques, and later, 20th century decorative arts/industrial design, etc, and I just enjoy seeing people's treasures appraised, hearing the stories, getting the sense of history, the whole thing. I also have come to realize that I really enjoy the music used on the show (the main theme, as well as the guitar music that's used during some of the segues). I went to the A.R. website in hopes of at least getting some info on their music, but could find nothing- not even in the "credits" section of the site. I seem to recall hearing or reading some years ago that the music was original (new), but that's all I know at this point. Obviously, it's based on some vintage style(s) and/or artists. But what? Who? Does anybody have any insights they could share on this? I know I'm being vague, but I can't help it. I'm guessing that there is at least some association here with "ragtime", but beyond that I'm pretty clueless. The A.R. music is instrumental (for some reason I've never even tried to analyze what instruments are being used on the main theme). It's syncopated, but has a nice relaxed vibe to it that I like. It's pretty simple harmonically speaking, but the melodies (and some of the harmony) can be very attractive. I'm guessing that the A.R. pieces were inspired by styles that were going on around the 1900 to 1915 era... but that's just kind of an intuitive feeling. Maybe this type of instrumental music remained popular longer than that, and overlapped with the beginnings of jazz...? At any rate, I'm getting the itch to learn more about this, and perhaps make a few purchases. I think the earliest music I have in my collection are the Gershwin piano rolls of 1916-27 (collected by Artis Wodehouse, and released on CD in 1993 on Elektra Nonesuch). I love this stuff, but being solo piano, it's slightly different from the music on Antiques Roadshow.

That's enough for starters... I don't want to put my cluelessness on display all at once. Any help / ideas appreciated.

[LAL]

Not sure if this is of any help.

The Paragon Ragtime Orchestra, formed in the 1980s, interprets American music scores written in the late 19th and early 20th century. The music is a combination of ragtime, waltzes, marches etc and has no vocals (at least on the discs I have) - very melodic music, fair bit of syncopation and overall quite enjoyable in reasonable doses. I do not recall any guitar used though. "Black Manhattan", featuring music composed by James Reese Europe, Will Marion Cook and others, seems like a good place to start (I don't have it).

See here for more information.

[Brandon Burke]

Well, there's worse places to start than this...

[rostasi]

Here's a fellow who's one of the players on that AR theme:

Billy Novick

[Jim R]

Not sure if this is of any help.

The Paragon Ragtime Orchestra, formed in the 1980s, interprets American music scores written in the late 19th and early 20th century. The music is a combination of ragtime, waltzes, marches etc and has no vocals (at least on the discs I have) - very melodic music, fair bit of syncopation and overall quite enjoyable in reasonable doses. I do not recall any guitar used though. "Black Manhattan", featuring music composed by James Reese Europe, Will Marion Cook and others, seems like a good place to start (I don't have it).

See here for more information.

Wow, that sure does help! Thank you very much LAL, that looks like a very promising lead. I listened to the MP3 sample, which was very enjoyable. I may need to gather more information in terms of satisfying my curiosity regarding what may be out there by smaller groups, solo or duet guitar, etc, but I'm definitely impressed by what I read about the P.R.O., and that page is also helpful in terms of seeing song titles and composer's names. I like that Mr. Benjamin "lives the life" and does things with the utmost care and respect for the history of the music. I like authenticity.

Thanks again, and please don't hesitate to post further about your experiences with the music. I'm interested, and even if nobody else cares, I will appreciate anything you have to offer.

=====

Brandon, your suggestion was not really along the lines of what I was looking for (more of the ragtime thing, rather than the early blues, gospel, hillbilly and cajun), but that's another interesting avenue to follow for sure. Probably deserves a thread of its own (if you haven't already)! Thanks.

=====

Rod, thank you also. I'm sure I've heard of Novick before, but don't own anything by him. That will be a good lead to follow as well.

[jazzbo]

Jim, I'm sort of not sure what to recommend just based on that one theme. . . which is really sort of reminiscent TO ME of "In the Mood," seems like a small group white swing song sort of.

I've always wondered about this cd and may just pick it up one day, and I think you may find it interesting:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...458201?v=glance

(Though it doesn't have clarinet or other horns!)

Edited March 15, 2005 by jazzbo

[rostasi]

Rod, thank you also.  I'm sure I've heard of Novick before, but don't own anything by him.  That will be a good lead to follow as well.

Sure, no prob. I know I have some recordings that are of that style, but most are on LP

(which immediately reminded me to check the Good Time Jazz label stuff).

Not sure what to think of Novick's jugband adaptation of Peter and the Wolf

There's a nice collection of the GTJ label that you may want to look into

with guys like The Firehouse Five Plus Two and Kid Ory, etc:

GTJ

I'm still going on a faint memory of what the AR theme sounds like,

but there are some links on the left hand side of the AMG page-link above

that send you to various styles that may help you out.

[jazzbo]

'Sout of print but it's cheap. I ordered me a copy from half.com

[rostasi]

Here's a guy who's created a list of his favorites from this style:

Jazz Revival

big on Firehouse Five, Lu Watters and Kid Ory

[Jim R]

Thanks, guys.

Lon, that Titanic-related disc looks interesting. I went and listened to a few sound samples, and it seems quite varied (which didn't surprise me). I didn't really hear anything in the 5 RA samples available to me (I'm on a Mac) that really grabbed me, but who knows- there may be some other tracks that might. I'm planning to go to a couple of local libraries to see what I can find, and narrow my focus. Although I'm still not able to say exactly what it is I'm after, I'm pretty sure it's not what we would call "trad jazz". It's not jazz, or improvisation, or instrumental virtuosity that I'm looking for. It's something more structured, but with a certain pizazz, and evoking an earlier era. I'm pretty sure it's "ragtime" (in general) that I'm trying to latch onto. The thing is, I know that the influence lasted, and the music evolved, and I just don't know the history, or the artists. I followed the Novick link and realized that the guitarist playing on the Roadshow (at least on the main theme) must be Guy Van Duser (he may also be playing the pieces used for segues during the show). I also was reminded of Chet Atkins during my search, as he was a big influence on Van Duser. I know Chet played some "rags", so that may be an avenue to pursue in terms of later developments (the evolution). But first I'd like to go back and explore what was going on in that early era.

All input appreciated, and please keep it coming.

[rostasi]

Good Time Jazz samples

[Jim R]

I can't get the clips on the following page to work. Is it just me, or can anybody play these?

http://www.paragonragtime.com/clips.html

[jazzbo]

Jim, personally I don't think that theme from the show IS predominantly ragtime, but swing. I'm hard pressed to think of ragtime that is really like it structurally or performance wise; it really is more like Glenn Miller/Benny Goodman swing to me distilled to a small group in a different instrumentation than say the small Goodman groups.

I think the Titanic disc will be interesting as an overview of pop music of the time; looking forward to it.

Jim, I'm not sure how conversant you are with early jazz in Chicago and elsewhere. Are you familiar with the Jimmie Noone sides with Earl Hines and Joe Poston? These have a flavor that may be somewhat in line with what you are seeking.

[AllenLowe]

if you want a good picture of early American pop/jazz/ragtime, check out the site for Archeophone Records who issues a ton of pre-1920's music; their early issues had some over-processed sound, but they've improved greatly since then - pre-1920 jazz and pop is a complicated subject and I would go to the originals, as re-creations are nice but cannot capture the original energy. I have a lot on this period in my book That Devilin' Tune (and by the way Paragon stole that Black Manhattan title from me; I did a limited edition CD of early black music some years ago with the same title) -

Edited March 16, 2005 by AllenLowe

[rostasi]

I can't get the clips on the following page to work.  Is it just me, or can anybody play these?

http://www.paragonragtime.com/clips.html

It seems that the server that the person was using is either down or no longer has those samples,

(according to the message that pops up).

So, to answer your question, it appears that it's not just you.

[Jim R]

Jim, personally I don't think that theme from the show IS predominantly ragtime, but swing. I'm hard pressed to think of ragtime that is really like it structurally or performance wise; it really is more like Glenn Miller/Benny Goodman swing to me distilled to a small group in a different instrumentation than say the small Goodman groups.

I was probably misguided to associate ragtime directly with the main A.R. theme. Still, I think there's a certain vagueness about that. The song itself (written for the show in the 1990's) seems to combine the swing element as well as an earlier vibe that I can't put my finger on. I couldn't find many details at all online about that composition, except that it was written by one Tom Phillips. I find it kind of sad that there is close to zero info at the A.R. site about the show's music. The musicians themselves are not credited at all. I just pulled out some VHS tapes I'd saved, and there was a New Orleans show from a previous season where a long (Van Duser?) solo guitar piece was used behind Dan Elias' introduction to the show. A guitar rag of sorts, I think. At any rate, I know that I'm interested in investigating the music of the 1900-1915 era, not necessarily early jazz.

Allen, thanks for the Archeophone Records idea. I took a quick look at the site, and I'm impressed.

[LAL]

The music of James Reese Europe's band might be worth exploring. There are two CD reissues(IAJRC and Mamphis Archives) of recordings made in 1919. Both discs have the exact same songs but in different order and sound quality and, the latter has extensive liner notes. Check out Amazon for more information. I haven't got this music but will definitely be checking it out soon.

[jazzbo]

That Titanic cd is quite good. Excellent sound and performance. A few pieces that might interest you Jim, but from what I know of your tastes and likes . . . I'm not sure that you're going to find a whole lot of early American music that you really dig . . . . Just my hunch. You're quite a sophisticate of modern music.

[AllenLowe]

the 1919 James Reese Europe's are not the prime ones to listen to - they are intersting but you really need to hear the recordings from 1913-1914 - hard to find, however -

[John L]

Here's a guy who's created a list of his favorites from this style:

Jazz Revival

big on Firehouse Five, Lu Watters and Kid Ory

Until now, I didn't know that anybody was big on the Firehouse Five.

[Jim R]

That Titanic cd is quite good. Excellent sound and performance. A few pieces that might interest you Jim, but from what I know of your tastes and likes . . . I'm not sure that you're going to find a whole lot of early American music that you really dig . . . . Just my hunch. You're quite a sophisticate of modern music.

Thanks, Lon. I hope your hunch turns out to be wrong! I suppose I may never become as enthusiastic about turn-of-the-20th century music as I am about the music of the mid-20th century, but I think there is potential here for at least an occasional "fling" (and not just a temporary one, as I think this could provide an ongoing outlet for a change of pace from the music with which I've already gone overboard ).

Over the past week, I've purchased a few CD's of Joplin music (scored used copies of a couple of the "piano roll" variety on the Biograph label; as well as a collection of the Canadian pianist John Arpin's interpretations), all of which I'm thoroughly enjoying in measured doses. Right now I'm just letting the mood wash over me... I haven't felt much of a desire to analyze it.

In addition, I've ordered a CD by the Paragon Ragtime Orchestra from Tower online, and may soon be ordering more- directly from Rick Benjamin himself. The internet truly is an amazing thing... one week ago I was groping around for a clue as to what it was that was calling to me, and now I'm exchanging e-mails with a man who is an important figure in preserving and celebrating the music of that era. Anybody who feels even remotely interested should definitely check out the P.R.O. websites- both the "New World Classics" (the group managing the band) pages as well as Rick's site. And thanks again to LAL for making me aware of them.

I'm still planning to pursue the instrumental guitar aspect of this as well. I have done some searching around with regard to the work of Guy Van Duser, and so far it's apparent that he covers quite a bit of stylistic ground. He has recorded quite a few CD's, one of which ("Stride Guitar") looks like it might be what I'm looking for. Of course, it's his only title that is available only out of Japan... at $35+

[AllenLowe]

look for a CD by Rounder called Minstrel Banjo - taken from original sheet music -

[Jim R]

BANJO !? You think I'm that hard up? Seriously, though, I'm more fond of the guitar, but I'm open to the idea (as long as it presents itself at an irresistable price ). Thanks.

[AllenLowe]

well, nobody seems to be really listening here, but let me add a few things and suggestions - re-creations are fine, but never really have the committment and energy of the original - here are two recordings to consider, as they offer INCREDIBLE insight into the way this music sounded originally -

1) Joseph Lamb - one of the great ragtime composers, a contemporary of Joplin (and, in my opnion, his equal as a composer) was found by Sam Charters to be living in NYC in 1960 - so Charters recorded him - he was a guy who had been isolated musically, and so might be said to truly reflect the old style - an incredible program of his rags was recorded and released on Folkways soon afterward -

2) Fess Manetta - early New Orleans piano professor - recorded circa 1957 for some small label (I'll have to dig it out) - this is a good way to get a sense of pre-jazz (or early early jazz) sound -

[Jim R]

Allen, I'm listening. I appreciate everyone's input here- really. Obviously, I'm a rookie... just getting my feet wet... I didn't mean to suggest that the P.R.O. was the only way to go, by any means. At least their work is relatively easy to get one's hands on, and I admire the fact that Benjamin has worked hard to give life to forgotten scores.

I was surprised at the lack of material from this era in the local stores. It seems to get lumped into the "jazz" category, and even then there is virtually nothing to choose from. I found a few discs of Joplin music in Tower's (classical) "composers" section, and that's about it.