Drumming Independence

[keberobeats88]

So I've been getting down the road of more advanced independence, beyond that of swing and some basic bossa nova etc etc, and I was wondering if any other drummers on here who work on this type of playing a lot have any "special" kind of tips or secrets? I'm learning that it's no crystal stair trying to lay down improv over 7/8 claves with both feet! But just to help out a beginner/slightly-more-advanced player in this department, what can you tell me? A big problem I've had is separating my feet, as well as using my feet to play beats outside of the clave that that foot is already playing...like for instance, if I hit a cowbell with my left foot on say 2 and the and of 3 every bar, it's damn hard to play counts on other beats to integrate with the improv my hands might be doing. I know it's kind of dark here...but I'm struggling! ANYthing at all would be great.

[rostasi]

Maybe it's due to being up working until 4 AM last night,

but I getting confused a lot tonight

OK, so you want some general tips?

Growing up doing just what you're doing -

one or two (or more, maybe) things I'd recommend:

I had 4 really great part-time teachers who

all emphasized the habit of learning to play slowly without rushing the tempo.

Sounds odd, especially when you're in your impatient teens and dealing with an instrument

known for fast playing solos, but please consider this.

Also, wear headphones and listen to as much variety of music

that you can get your paradiddling hands on and play along -

you don't have to match exactly what's being played on the recording -

you're not trying to outdrum the drummer. While playing in this fashion, tho,

I'd recommend that your mindset drifts every few minutes from yourself as the sole

drummer in the group to yourself as a second drummer in the group.

Do this back and forth and you will learn how to compliment other rhythms -

not just the other drummer, but whatever the bass player or, for example,

the organist's left hand (or feet, for that matter), is doing.

Also: during your practice sessions when there is NO music and you are just trying

to get all of your limbs to work together rhythmically? - don't always work all 4 limbs

at the same time trying to work out the rhythms - you just may get frustrated - better

to use combinations of "twos" - left hand bounces against easy bass drum patterns,

then, do it the other way around: multiple bass drum patterns with easy left hand fills...

but remember to practice ALL combinations of your 4 limbs, but only two at a time, so

as to really learn the limb relationships. You'd be surprised by what you can accomplish.

Lastly, but not finally, whether you're playing latin or afro-cuban or reggae or whatever,

don't ever be afraid to try those very same rhythms using sticks other than your standard

jazz 7A's...and I don't mean JUST cranking out those rock 5A's instead - or even those

marching band 3As - I'm talkin' 'bout brushes, vibraphone mallets, timpani mallets,

and just about anything else that you can safely use on your drumheads.

As you get older, I hope you become more creative with what you use

and can safely manipulate on the drumheads.

Of course, I'm just giving you a part of what I've learned -

and my interests and desires are probably not even close

to what you're wanting out of drumming.

I mean, whipping my drums with chains became a glorious

(and sometimes too frequent) delight after hearing Jacques Thollot

do the same and the two most influential drummers for me

(besides Steve McCall, and Denis Charles) were Han Bennink, and Barry Altschul,

so that may give you an idea of which direction I'm coming from here.

So, I don't know if this overly-long answer actually helped, but you have a long future ahead of you

and remember to never think that you've learned it all!

[Jim Alfredson]

I'm not a drummer, but I play organ, which requires a lot of independence of the limbs as well. There are a few things I do to help with this, if I'm really stuck:

1) Slow it down. To a crawl, if need be.

2) Work with a sequencer. This sounds weird, but it works for me. What I do is play each part into the sequencer, put a click track behind it playing 1/4 notes or maybe even 1/8th notes, and then slow it down. This allows me to hear not only where each part lays in relation to the click, but how much space is between the parts themselves.

In other words, I can hear "hey, I need to hit a C natural on beat 2-and with my left hand, followed a half beat later by a Eb on beat 3 with my right hand... oh and on beat four both hands hit together, G in the left, D in the right..." etc.

Hard to explain... don't know if I helped or not!

[mikeweil]

I would add timbale sticks of any gauge to the stick assortment - the Latin stuff feels differently, and in my impression, better with them.

My experience is that most African and Afro-American i.e. Latin American rhythms work much like a module system. Write down a number of patterns - clave, cascara, tresillo, bell patterns - and different beat and off-beat time lines in a proportional notation, and then change only one of them at a time, switch them around to all the limbs - that's what Cuban drummers do. It helps to slow down the tempo so you can think along while playing and starting to hear all the patterns together.

You can start with just a bell or cascara in the right hand and a tumbao (beats on 2 and 4) in the left hand like a timbales player and add the feet when this runs smoothly.

Edited March 14, 2005 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

One more advice - do not start by imitating Horacio Hernandez or any other of these madmen - watch someone like like Roberto Juan Rodriguez who keeps it simpler but grooves like hell. Or the old masters like Willie Bobo who just added a bass drum to the timbales - José Claussell in the Eddie Palmieri band still plays like this.

I think it is too much when they fill up every fraction of the beat twice.

[mikeweil]

BTW - I found the book Afro-Cuban Rhythms for Drumset by Frankie Malabe and Bob Weiner very helpful in this respect.

[keberobeats88]

I had 4 really great part-time teachers who

all emphasized the habit of learning to play slowly without rushing the tempo.

Sounds odd, especially when you're in your impatient teens and dealing with an instrument

known for fast playing solos, but please consider this.

Psh, you write me off as a fool.

Naw, I've been crawling with this stuff, really. It's just more or less physical coordination exercises that I'm looking for. Something to send me down the right track. The rest of your post, however, really did help, thanks!

mikeweil - Thanks a lot too. Good stuff. I'm gonna try and pick up that book this afternoon if I can get it at Sam Ash, but knowing them I might have to order it. Haha, yea, I had to remind myself that I'm not that terrible when I was watching these videos of El Negro and Antonio Sanchez, I know what you mean.

[Jazz Kat]

Just keep playing what you can do, no matter how much you screw up the ride pattern. One day, you'll find out your independence has gotten good. And great books are Advanced Techniques For The Modern Drummer As Applied To Jazz And Bebop, writen by a guy who I feel dont swing, but writes these books perfectly with perfect excerices. Written by Jim Chapin.

[Jazz Kat]

So I've been getting down the road of more advanced independence, beyond that of swing and some basic bossa nova etc etc, and I was wondering if any other drummers on here who work on this type of playing a lot have any "special" kind of tips or secrets?  I'm learning that it's no crystal stair trying to lay down improv over 7/8 claves with both feet!  But just to help out a beginner/slightly-more-advanced player in this department, what can you tell me?  A big problem I've had is separating my feet, as well as using my feet to play beats outside of the clave that that foot is already playing...like for instance, if I hit a cowbell with my left foot on say 2 and the and of 3 every bar, it's damn hard to play counts on other beats to integrate with the improv my hands might be doing.  I know it's kind of dark here...but I'm struggling!  ANYthing at all would be great.

How's it been working out? I returned back to drums as my main instrument this week. Let's see what happens next.

Edited March 20, 2005 by Jazz Kat

[Joe G]

Next week, you mean?

[Jazz Kat]

At my rate I could be back to guitar tomorrow. Or in 5 hours.

[GregN]

I'm not a drummer, but I play organ, which requires a lot of independence of the limbs as well. There are a few things I do to help with this, if I'm really stuck:

1) Slow it down. To a crawl, if need be.

2) Work with a sequencer. This sounds weird, but it works for me. What I do is play each part into the sequencer, put a click track behind it playing 1/4 notes or maybe even 1/8th notes, and then slow it down. This allows me to hear not only where each part lays in relation to the click, but how much space is between the parts themselves.

In other words, I can hear "hey, I need to hit a C natural on beat 2-and with my left hand, followed a half beat later by a Eb on beat 3 with my right hand... oh and on beat four both hands hit together, G in the left, D in the right..." etc.

Hard to explain... don't know if I helped or not!

Did a similiar thing when I was beginning to learn fingerstyle guitar. Great advice Jim.

As an additional thought, complete independence isn't likely the goal. More like, smartly orchestrated and fairly sophisticated interdependence?

I have an ex-girlfriend, from many years ago, who is now quite independent of me.

(yeah, I'm a dork)

At any rate, Randy (of the super group Organissimo) also does an incredible job of such things. And never at the expense of musicality. Often four percussionists in one, and four times the fun!

Greg

[Jazz Kat]

You have to, to be a good jazz drummer, imo.

[mlm]

There is a very good method book: "4-Way Cooridination" by Marvin Dahlgran. Still published. You might also ask on the drumcenter forum. (http://www.drumcenterforum.com/)

Edited March 26, 2005 by mlm

[SGUD missile]

There is a very good method book: "4-Way Cooridination" by Marvin Dahlgran. Still published. You might also ask on the drumcenter forum. (http://www.drumcenterforum.com/)

I think this is the same guy that invented ( or marketed in the US ( the Billoti "Trinome" back in the 60s ..it was a matronome that allowed you to program up to 3 different simutaneous subdivisions upon one another ( i..e. 4 against 3 against 7 ..or whatever else you could dream up )

I don't even know if the mechanical device itself is still being made, but maybe Dahlgren ( or someone) has devised a software version.

This might prove to be an independence helper if still available ..

edit: I did a little search ..check this out:

http://www.oberlin.edu/con/bkstage/200005/...n_jonathan.html

and HERES the computer program version! ..taa daaa !!!

http://luckymedia.com/Quadranome/

Edited March 26, 2005 by SGUD missile

[jazzypaul]

Here's the other independance booster par excellance...

learn all of your led zeppelin tunes. So many of these tunes (and their drumbeats) sound ridiculously simple, until you try to lay them down. As much as studying with some great jazz drummers in Chicago helped me a ton, and as much as going through the syncopation book in various forms helped me a ton, my drumming got REALLY freed up as soon as I started really getting into Bonham's brain and trying to figure out some of his grooves.

On a lesser level, the same can be said for some of Mitch Mitchell's stuff as well.

[Jazz Kat]

Yes Bonham's grooves were very hard, but I haven't had any trouble playing any of the songs on LZ 1 2 3 Houses Of The Holy, and Physical Grafitti.

[mikeweil]

There is a very good method book: "4-Way Cooridination" by Marvin Dahlgran. Still published. You might also ask on the drumcenter forum. (http://www.drumcenterforum.com/)

I think this is the same guy that invented ( or marketed in the US ( the Billoti "Trinome" back in the 60s ..it was a matronome that allowed you to program up to 3 different simutaneous subdivisions upon one another ( i..e. 4 against 3 against 7 ..or whatever else you could dream up )

I don't even know if the mechanical device itself is still being made, but maybe Dahlgren ( or someone) has devised a software version.

This might prove to be an independence helper if still available ..

edit: I did a little search ..check this out:

http://www.oberlin.edu/con/bkstage/200005/...n_jonathan.html

and HERES the computer program version! ..taa daaa !!!

http://luckymedia.com/Quadranome/

Thanks for these links! An old musician friend of mine constructed an electronic metronome for two simultaneous meters more than 20 years ago, and always wondered if anybody else had developped anything in that direction. Now I now what to tell him ...

[jazzypaul]

Yes Bonham's grooves were very hard, but I haven't had any trouble playing any of the songs on LZ 1 2 3 Houses Of The Holy, and Physical Grafitti.

Really?

Make sure you're playing the groove to Immigrant Song correctly.

As well...try, just try to play When The Levee Breaks, as Bonham plays it. Unless your four way independance is totally together, it's a bitch.

And if you can play The Crunge note for note at all of 16, I'm selling my drumset. I didn't get that one completely together until sometime last year.

[Jazz Kat]

The opening groove in The Crunge is pretty tricky. So far, it's been the hardest one.

[mlm]

Have a go at Elvin Jones' 'groove' on India.

[jazzypaul]

Have a go at Elvin Jones' 'groove' on India.

That one is an awesome one, as is the first track on the first trio side with Liebman. I forget the name off the top of my head, but only Elvin could do Afro-Cuban like that! Awesomeness!

[SGUD missile]

Product Report: Quadrinome:

Okay, for $ 15 , I downloaded this puppy, and I've really had fun playing with it all day long!

It's very user friendly and WILL superimpose four simultaneous rhythms ( from one to thirteen ! ) with different sounds and play them back at varying speeds..

y'all have yer choice of latin sounds, drum kit, or metronome ( like the old trinome )

I've already contacted the developer of this thing and suggested he work up a way to export this stuff via MIDI for very strange multiple click tracks, for one thing ..

the possibilities are endless!

[mlm]

If you have a midi sequencer/software, you could just input the rhythms you want on different tracks.

[keberobeats88]

Sounds like everyone got helped from this topic more than I even did.

Thanks a lot for the links, and as a matter of fact I once knew a guy who carried a trinome. It was fun, it had a cool little bell that rang every time it hit the "one."

I've been working with my private instructor about it some too, with the polyrhythmic kind of stuff, and what he's trying to get me to do is he'll clap time and I'll keep it on a cymbal and snare or something and he'll call out a number like 13! or 7! and I try and fit that many counts into the 10 evenly with my foot. Grueling. (sp?) Anyway, that seems to be helping me get more comfortable with the different kinds of rhythmic stuff going on between your time and your clave or whatever. If anyone wants to try I mean But you might want to take a deep breath first.