Hank Mobley

[Dan Gould]

I've grown to scorn baseball, so that one sticks in my craw, tho' even as a pup, as I like, huh? Why?! I dig a lot of Dex but his fondness for what I feel to be cheap, disjunctive quotation lessens his art for me. (And yes, the same goes for Sonny Rollins. I'm glad they're having fun but those kinda yuks ain't my bag at all.)

Clem

Then I'm guessing that you would really hate Tardo Hammer's cover of "Take Me Out To The Ball Game" in which he slips "Two Bass Hit" into the theme. Personally, first time I heard that, I laughed out loud.

[Shrdlu]

To be fair to Vibes, I didn't like Lester Young the first time I heard him. That's because it was a poor live recording, made late in his life (when his health had gone down the Suwannee and his playing was nowhere near its best) and with bad sound quality. For some reason, I did not find it easy to obtain Pres's many good recordings for many years. But, now that his 30s and 40s stuff is all to hand, including some thirties airshots with Basie where there is no 78 time limit and the soloists can really stretch, I can really appreciate just how good he was. This really comes out when there are alternate takes, as the solos are always completely different. I read that in the 30s, at jam sessions, he used to amaze the other musicians by playing chorus after chorus without repeating himself. If only we had some recordings of these sessions! I said 30s and 40s, but there are also some fine recordings in the 50s (mainly on Verve), such as the session with Teddy Wilson. But I much prefer his 30s recordings.

You can also judge how good Pres was by the opinions of all the other musicians, and, of course, his influence on countless others.

[skeith]

Some ruminations on the original poster's question.

Yes, I am also confused by the near idolatry that Mobley gets particularly on the old BNBB. I acknowledge his talent, but I think we would all agree that he is not the improvisor that we have with Rollins or Coltrane. Given that we could call him a "second tier" tenor player of his generation, I marvel at the amount of cyber ink Mobley gets over players such as Sonny Stitt and George Coleman, also "second tier" tenor players who in my opinion are much more talented.

I think that the Blackhawk recordings (I only have the late 80's releases and don't plan to upgrade)points out some of Mobley's weaknesses. I was playing the tune Walkin' from those Cds. I note Mobley's solo is about 6 minutes, longer than Miles's solo or Wynton Kelly's,which is by the way, longer than his solos from his Blue Note recordings. I note a certain rhythmic uncertainty, and that band demands you get into the pocket so to speak. Also I note a fair number of hard bop cliches and then after about 4 minutes, I thought really Hank you don't need to play another chorus, but he does and then does again and I find my attention wavering, because he's not really adding anything.

I then jumped to his justly acclaimed Soul Station cd (also with Kelly and Chambers, by the way)to play "this I dig of you" and note the solo is shorter, more cohesive, and he seems in the pocket, and great composition and good solos.

I then played "four and more" and "my funny valentine" from a couple of years later and marvel at how much more riveted I am by George Coleman's solos.

SO, bottom line, I recognize the talent, but yes I am also mystified at the level of fanaticism that surrounds him.

[Templejazz]

Hank was a musician's musician. Very well rounded. Distinct for me in his phrasing, melodic ideas, articulation.

You either hear it or you don't. If you do, great, if not fine........but don't give up, you'll come around.

Oh, yeah, the Blackhawk sides are definitely not the best show off material for Hank. Ya really need do dig into 'No Room For Squares', 'Dippin' , 'Soul Station', to really scrape the heart of what he's all about. 'Straight No Filter' isn't too shabby either.

Oh, yeah, this might get me flamed to smithereens but I've often found Sonny Rollins' playing to be plain boring.

Edited June 26, 2003 by Templejazz

[Vincent, Paris]

This might be the wrong thread to ask but does anyone know why Hank Mobley did not show up at the Jazz Messengers concert at the Toronto Jazz Festival in July 1959 ? Does anyone has details about that ?

[pryan]

Shrdlu - Check out Prez' last session, which was recorded in Paris and, aptly, is out on the "Jazz in Paris" series on Universal. Done mainly with French musicians (although the wonderful Kenny Clarke is on drums), this session shows that Lester still could convey intensely emotional statements, even at the VERY tail end of his career. His phrases may be shorter in length and his tone a bit more "tired", but it's still Prez and his artistry shines through just as brightly as on some of the more well-known sessions. Highly recommended.

[BeBop]

Note sure how I missed this thread first time 'round, but...

I like Hank okay. I've probably got 90 percent of his recordings. But I can only listen for short periods. As a used-to-be tenor player, I think the man articulates like he's got a mouthful of marbles and it drives me nuts. (And that's why I'm a used-to-be...)

As a non-trumpet player, I find Clark Terry's unique attack/articulation endearing and distinctive. I can even handle Eddie Davis on tenor. But Hank...?!

[Larry Kart]

Bebop, when you say, "As a used-to-be tenor player, I think the man articulates like he's got a mouthful of marbles and it drives me nuts," I think you're pointing right at a big part of the problem. While there were times when Hank's control of the horn was not ideal (probably because he was under the weather physically or, in the case of the "Blackhawk" material, feeling a draft from Miles) what Bebop and probably many others hear as "mouthful of marbles" articulation is, in the view of Mobley admirers, entirely purposeful rhythmic ambiguity/subtlety, although its working aren't always that easy to grasp because so much is going on at the level of the smallest perceivable rhythmic units -- the musical equivalent of a wink or a shrug. All I'm saying is that Mobley is one of those players where you really have to hear every note to grasp what's going on, this compared to players like Dexter or Rollins, who so thoroughly dramatize the through line of their thinking that it's like their solos come with Cliff Notes (no value judgment here, BTW, just different ways of being).

[BeBop]

Thank you, Lawrence Kart. I'll give Hank another listen with your comments in mind. As I say, the unusual 'approach' doesn't bother me with Clark Terry or Eddie Davis - neither of whom precisely attack each note - but I've never fully 'gotten it' with Mobley. Overall, I like his ideas, so overcoming this last hurdle (?) would be nice. Again, thanks.

[Chuck Nessa]

Shrdlu - Check out Prez' last session, which was recorded in Paris and, aptly, is out on the "Jazz in Paris" series on Universal. Done mainly with French musicians (although the wonderful Kenny Clarke is on drums)...

Pianist Rene Urtreger is the only "non american" on the date.

[pryan]

Oops, thanks for the correction Chuck. I figured just because I hadn't heard of the other two musicians, Jimmy Gourley on guitar (who has a wonderful Kenny Burrell-like conception) and Jamil Nasser on bass, that they were French also. Never assume anything.... -_-

Edited June 27, 2003 by pryan

[Vincent, Paris]

Jamil Nasser is from Memphis... Tennessee!

Clem

Born George Joyner.

[Guy Berger]

By the way, Hank's solo on "Neo" from Miles's Carnegie Hall concert is absolutely smoking. It's not a setting he was always comfortable with at this point in his career, but definitely one of his finest moments.

Guy

[chris olivarez]

I'm just now starting to get into Mobley and the more I hear of him the more I like him. Did he play any other instrument besides the tenor?

[Guest youmustbe]

Hank spoke the 'language' of what was referred to as 'hard bop' better than anyone, except maybe. Jackie Mac. He was Hip! ...On records.

Live, you never wanted to hear him again. Small sound, nodding off posture, slovenly dress. Although, when you talked to him, he was cool.

To paraphrase Willie Nelson...'The hard bop life ain't no good life, but it's the only life Hank knew'

[sheldonm]

Live, you never wanted to hear him again. Small sound, nodding off posture, slovenly dress. Although, when you talked to him, he was cool.

Really?

[robviti]

i'm surprised aric hasn't weighed in on this discussion yet, given the frank conversation about his idol. then again, it took him a month to discover steve lacy had passed away.

[Dan Gould]

Live, you never wanted to hear him again. Small sound, nodding off posture, slovenly dress. Although, when you talked to him, he was cool. 

Really?

And are you saying that he was hip only on records, and too wasted to do anything on the band stand?

Or was the slovenly dress and nodding off offensive to you on another level?

[bluesForBartok]

Blackhawk was not Hank's finest few hours...

I am amazed at how many of you really don't care for his playing on the Blackhawk recordings. I know there is a lot in print that fuel this notion but I think he sounds great on those sides!

His tone is really crisp and he plays such tasty, melodic, lyrical lines throughout. I mean these were made during his so called peak right? I've always wondered if most people would feel the same way about these recordings if influential sources like the Troupe/Miles book and the Penguin guide haven't been so widely read.

When I listen to Mobley I'm not interested in how prodigious his technique is or how he compares to Coltrane, Dex or Sonny Rollins. I'm purely interested in his conception and music.

Maybe I have tin ears or something but I'm very impressed with his work on these recordings and I would love to overturn the collective opinion that he wasn't "happening" with Davis's group.

It's time for everyone to reassess these recordings? Screw what Miles and Richard Cook say!!!

[B. Goren.]

Today is Hank Mobley's birthday. Mobley was born on July 7, 1930 in Eastman, GA.

[sjarrell]

i'm surprised aric hasn't weighed in on this discussion yet, given the frank conversation about his idol. then again, it took him a month to discover steve lacy had passed away.

YEAH, BUT ARIC WAS THE FIRST GUY ON THE BOARD TO KNOW ELVIN WAS GONE...

[Soulstation1]

DOUBLE HELL YEAH....

SS1

[wesbed]

Maybe I have tin ears or something but I'm very impressed with his work on these recordings and I would love to overturn the collective opinion that he wasn't "happening" with Davis's group.

I'm quite impressed with Hank at the Blackhawk as well. I believe Miles would have done well to keep his ego in check and let Mobley play some more. Mobley provided a very soulful and funky counter to Miles' trumpet.

In my opinion, Mobley wasn't trying stretch the music, go for broke, or rewrite the rules of jazz... Mobley was content just being Mobley. Miles wanted to stretch, strain, and take the music to a new place. Hank Mobley, conversely, stood his ground and wouldn't go there. Again, my opinion...

[JSngry]

I don't know that Miles himself was really wanting to stretch the music all that much at the time - it was the peak of his first "star" phase, and he was by all accounts enjoying it immensely. As well, he was showing signs of complacency, specifically in his overt antagonism to the then sprouting avant-garde. The temptaion must have been great for him to stand pat and keep riding the horse that brought him there, and it's a temtation that I don't think he was always ready to fight off. Why should he? Life was good, so was the money, and the music wasn't too shabby either.

However, I do think that he wanted SOMEBODY in his band to do what Coltrane had done - electrocute everybody and give Miles a "hot" foil to his own "cool" leader's role. Hank was not the man to do that, and it wasn't his fault. But there's more to having a band, a real band, than just having good players. You got to have combinations of personalities and tendencies that contrast and conflict in a positive way, and that allow the individuals to express themselves while at the same time presenting the leader's unique vision. It ain't easy.

No slight to Hank - LOTS of guys passed through that gig before Wayne settled in. Hank just happened to get more profile than the rest. The only exception would be George Coleman, but he was on the gig when the new rhythm section was debuting, as opposed to Hank, who was on the gig with the Kelley/PC/Cobb crew, who, it could be argued, were Red/PC/Philly with the edges rounded off - in a non-derogatory way, of course. It was both the culmination and the end of an era, and Miles hadn't yet decided which it would ultimately be.

What I find odd is the need to defend Hank's Miles work. It was indeed fine, but jeez, if it never happened at all, it would not affect his real contributions and greatness one iota. Definitely a footnote in the man's career, objectively, his crediting of Miles with getting him to parse down his style notwithstanding. My gut tells me that he would have done that anyway in reaction to everything in the air anyway. Hank always was a bit of a contrarian, God bless him.

[Guy Berger]

I'm quite impressed with Hank at the Blackhawk as well. I believe Miles would have done well to keep his ego in check and let Mobley play some more. Mobley provided a very soulful and funky counter to Miles' trumpet.

I guess I'm not sure I see where this complaint is coming from -- Hank plays quite a bit (and quite well) on the Blackhawk recordings, though he obviously isn't going on any Trane-style marathons. I don't think Miles even makes him sit out the ballads -- something that Trane had to deal with early on. (Heck, Miles made Cannonball sat out on some ballads!)

By the way, I listened to Seven Steps to Heaven today after spending a week listening to the 1961 band and IMHO George Coleman was an upgrade over Mobley.

Guy