Pat Metheny

[rachel]

I found it a bit annoying for Rachel and Joe to simply dismiss my argument as "making no sense" because they disagreed.

For the record I said that your initial statement made no sense because it made no logical sense, not because I necessarily agreed or disagreed. You extrapolated quite a bit from a few sentences from an article and made a quick pronouncement that seemed like a broad jump from point A to point B. You have no idea what type of music I like. Yes I'm a jazz fan, but I'm also a fan of many types of music. But I'm a logic fan too: I was responding to your words and wondering how you could dismiss all ( or at least most) jazz guitar based on something Pat Metheny says (as if he speaks for all jazz guitarists). That's all.

Edited February 26, 2005 by rachel

[Joe G]

That's how I read it as well...

[AllenLowe]

nonsense, Rachel - here's what I was responding to by Metheny:

"The guitar for me is a translation device," he answered. "It's not a goal. And in some ways jazz isn't a destination for me. For me, jazz is a vehicle that takes you to the true destination -

and here's what I wrote:

"Metheny does what a lot of musicians do, which is say that it's not important what the instrument is, but that the instrument is merely a vessel through which to express the music. I think this is very wrong headed - each instrument has it's own qualities that ought to be exploited - now, Metheny is a great player, but his attitude does explain, to me, why I hate the SOUND of most jazz guitar - "

quite a logical connection - you might disagree with my conclusions, but they make sense in the context of what Metheny said and what I wrote about it - and I have heard many musicians, partiuclarly jazz guitarists, talk this way. So the connection makes sense AND is logical - many jazz guitarists have spoken of how their inspiration has come from other instruments. I think this is a prime reason why many guitarists have ignored the sonic innovations of rock and roll and country music - and why those who HAVE paid attention to rock and roll and country have simply tended to make the connection through pedals and digital effects -

Edited February 26, 2005 by AllenLowe

[rachel]

Hey, just reading what you wrote. I'm not the only one who thought it was a logical leap. You continued by saying that Metheny's attitude is why you hate the sound of most jazz guitar, then you say that you don't hate Metheny's sound, you just don't like it very much. So, Metheny's attitude makes you hate the sound of most jazz guitar but make you just 'not like' his so much.

Sure, 57 posts later your point is a little more clear...

Edited February 26, 2005 by rachel

[AllenLowe]

ahh, good. I'm glad we straightened that out - did they teach you that stuff in debate club?

Edited February 26, 2005 by AllenLowe

[rachel]

go back and re-read your initial posts... maybe it takes 57 posts for people to express themselves more clearly.

Edited February 26, 2005 by rachel

[AllenLowe]

I don't think I count 57 of mine - but maybe you're not being clear enough - and I've had many reviews of my writing - not a one has ever complained about clarity -

Edited February 26, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Jazzmoose]

I don't think I count 57 of mine - but maybe you're not being clear enough - and I've had many reviews of my writing - not a one has ever complained about clarity -

What? Huh? What do you mean?

[Joe G]

I'm having trouble cutting through the digital fog...

[AllenLowe]

exactly my point...

[AllenLowe]

all future posts here will be entered in pig-Latin to improve clarity -

[couw]

pffff

[Jazzmoose]

Wait a minute; let me get my Organissimo Decoder Ring...

[CJ Shearn]

Allen, I think you are being unfair to Metheny. You may not like his tone, but he is truly one of contemporary jazz's greatest musicians. His new work, "The Way Up" goes far beyond anything any jazz guitarist has been putting out in the moment. If you don't like Pat, I would assume you dislike Herb Ellis, and Pat Martino, also?

[AllenLowe]

oh-nay. I-ay ike-lay very e-ay itarist-gay in eh-thay orld-way.

ank-they ou-yay ery-vay uch-may.

[Jazzmoose]

oh-nay. I-ay ike-lay very e-ay itarist-gay in eh-thay orld-way.

ank-they ou-yay ery-vay uch-may.

I understood that!!!

[7/4]

oh-nay. I-ay ike-lay very e-ay itarist-gay in eh-thay orld-way.

ank-they ou-yay ery-vay uch-may.

Allen, could you blow your nose and type that again?

[alankin]

Ive hread taht you can raed ahtnynig as lnog as the fisrt and lsat lteetrs are crorcet.

[rachel]

... and I've had many reviews of my writing - not a one has ever complained about clarity -

thank God for editors, eh?

[AllenLowe]

well, the first two books were written in Esperanto - limited audience -

[skeith]

nonsense, Rachel - here's what I was responding to by Metheny:

"The guitar for me is a translation device," he answered. "It's not a goal. And in some ways jazz isn't a destination for me. For me, jazz is a vehicle that takes you to the true destination -

and here's what I wrote:

"Metheny does what a lot of musicians do, which is say that it's not important what the instrument is, but that the instrument is merely a vessel through which to express the music. I think this is very wrong headed - each instrument has it's own qualities that ought to be exploited - now, Metheny is a great player, but his attitude does explain, to me, why I hate the SOUND of most jazz guitar - "

quite a logical connection - you might disagree with my conclusions, but they make sense in the context of what  Metheny said and what I wrote about it - and I have heard many musicians, partiuclarly jazz guitarists, talk this way. So the connection makes sense AND is logical - many jazz guitarists have spoken of how their inspiration has come from other instruments. I think this is a prime reason why many guitarists have ignored the sonic innovations of rock and roll and country music  - and why those who HAVE paid attention to rock and roll  and country have simply tended to make the connection through pedals and digital effects -

Jeez,

I thought Allen' s comments made sense because I read it to mean that since Metheny apparently thinks the instrument itself is irrelevant , in this case a guitar, then he is going to care less about whether the guitar actually sounds like a guitar and I took it that since Allen thought a lot of musicians share Metheny's attitude, then a lot of guitarists, would also care less - so the result is you have a lot of guitarists playing guitars that don't sound like guitars-and hence it is logical to hate the sound of most jazz guitar. Since the electric guitar is infinitely malleable in its sound - many don't sound like the sound I like on guitars anyway.

Am I reading you right, Allen?

Edited February 27, 2005 by skeith

[Jazzmoose]

I dunno Skieth; to me the problem is that jazz guitarists in general are too concerned with making the electric guitar sound exactly like an electric guitar sounds (yeah, I know; that makes no sense at all). So many of them sound exactly the same (tone-wise) as Wes Montgomery. I get the idea that jazz guitarists cringe when they hear Hendrix, or darn near any other rock guitarist, and not because of the music they're playing.

[skeith]

Well Moose, I wish more guitarists sounded like Wes, who always sounded like a real guitar. today most of the jazz guitarists have adopted the tone that John Scofield had around 1990 (maybe he still has it I don't know) it is a sort of fuzzy, murky, kind of tone that buzzes and I can't hear much of the real guitar.

Now, it worked for him and I even like some of his stuff, but Christ everybody went that way and I like another sound out of a guitar.

[Jim Alfredson]

This whole conversation reminds me of my comment about Sonny Stitt and the Varitone awhile back.

[Chuck Nessa]

I might have been lucky - or not. When the whole electric Miles/fusion era was happening I was too deeply involved in other musical matters and missed that whole deal. After the fact, it never interested me and it seemed so "not rock/not jazz" so I've generally ignored it.

The same thing happened with the jazz neo-cons. Heard early Wyntnon, etc, thought "nuthin' happnin'" so I moved on.

I guess some consider these "blind spots", but I consider it "movin' on".