vinylexamination Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Hiyall- I'm working on a discography of Jimmy Cleveland during the 1950's - anyone got any info or recordings not in the published stuff? Any help would be greatly appreciated - Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 'fraid I can't help with the discography (wish I could), but allow me to be the first to roll out the official "Organissimo Forums" welcome-mat for you --- especially since you're a newbie who isn't trying to sell us the Brooklyn Bridge. Take a load off your feet, buy a drink, and tell us a bit about yourself. -- Rooster T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Afraid I don't have any info for you, but I do have a question. What's the story behind the Cleveland / Hank Jones / Barry Galbraith / Milt Hinton / Osie Johnson tracks recetnly reissued on this Fresh Sound release? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 I love the Meatwad avatar!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinylexamination Posted February 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Thanks for the hospitality! I'm assuming the tracks on the Fresh Sound release are from Rhythm Plus One (Epic LN3297) and After Hours Jazz (Epic LN3339), recorded June 25, 1956 - does it include all four tracks that Cleveland played on? I'm not exactly sure of "the story" behind these, but I think it was a way to show off Epic's "house" rhythm section, using some great soloists of the day (Gene Quill, Seldon Powell, and Conte Candoli were the others on Rhythm Plus One), essentially as promo for Epic's jazz department. Fresh Sound - what a great label! Do they have a webpage? I remember looking for one awhile back to no avail . . . Oh, and about myself . . . I'm a jazz trombonist/pianist/bassist - I'm working on a DMA at U of Miami - I teach at UM and FIU - even though I got an iPod for xmas, I'm hopelessly addicted to vinyl - they're taking over our house . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Thanks for the info. I was guessing these were "sampler"-type issues, but the label of origin was throwing me. There are indeed four Cleveland tracks on this Fresh Sound release. And, yes, you can now find Fresh Sound (and its associated labels) on the web: http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Fresh Sound - what a great label! Do they have a webpage? I remember looking for one awhile back to no avail . . . Oh, and about myself . . . I'm a jazz trombonist/pianist/bassist - I'm working on a DMA at U of Miami - I teach at UM and FIU - even though I got an iPod for xmas, I'm hopelessly addicted to vinyl - they're taking over our house . . . A hearty welcome to another vinyl fan. The website for Fresh Sound records is http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/ Another fan of Jimmy Cleveland here. Will try to help in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinylexamination Posted February 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Wow, you folks are fast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 (edited) Jimmy Cleveland is a favorite of mine - huge output is daunting, even for the 1950s there's at least 300 sessions. For discography work, I strongly recommend the BRIAN computer program that Steve Albin wrote. You can read more here: http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...=14363&hl=albin or at the website that Steve and I run http://www.JazzDiscography.com You can also see around 50 discographies already done in BRIAN. And there are MANY more sessions entered that aren't seen there. With work on Gigi Gryce, Art Farmer, Benny Golson, Art Blakey, and others, I have already entered quite a few sessions that include Cleveland (including the entire Mercury output, for example). http://www.JazzDiscography.com/Temp/boxedsets.htm Since BRIAN has a data exchange feature, I would be happy to export these for you and help share the load of this massive task. If you choose, the finished discography could be linked on the website too. A Curtis Fuller discography is in the works, so that would be a mighty post-JJ triumvirate: Cleve, Curtis, and Slide. Do contact me via email for any further information on this. Mike Edited February 24, 2005 by Michael Fitzgerald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Wow, you folks are fast! Depends... If you happen to have information about that release, I'm still interested... http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...jimmy+cleveland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Why limit your discography to the 50s? Did Cleveland stop recording after that? Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 I'm afraid all I have is the EmArcy issue but would love to have more. For Fresh Sounds and other releases, you may want to check out dustygroove.com. They carry a lot of Fresh Sounds material and even if it's out of stock, they can get them in pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Hey - cut the guy some slack! There's plenty in the 1950s. Once that's finished, he can move on. According to Lord, Cleveland is on over 500 sessions between 1950 and 1991 - and 40 in 1959 alone! (In fact more than that because Lord incorrectly lists some 1959 items as "probably early 1960s"). Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinylexamination Posted February 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Why limit your discography to the 50s? Did Cleveland stop recording after that? Cleveland was certainly active in the 60's and beyond, but I'm doing this as part of a doctoral essay, and I have serious time (and space) constraints - I hope to complete the full discography sometime later. Mike- Thanks for your generous offer. I'll be in touch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Interesting. That answers my question, which was not meant in any way as a criticism - I was just curious about the magical cut-off of 1960. I know all about space and time constraints! What is the subject of your dissertation? Thanks, Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinylexamination Posted February 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 What is the subject of your dissertation? The title is Jazz Trombonist Jimmy Cleveland: A Bio-Discography and Analysis of his Style - I think I bit off a bit more than I can chew doing this two-part thing, but I'm chewing hard. I was just curious about the magical cut-off of 1960 Actually - there are a few reasons for 1960 - 1) Cleveland's major sessions as a leader on Emarcy were all in the 50's, ending with Rhythm Crazy in '59; 2) He left for a European tour playing the musical Free and Easy with the Quincy Jones band in early 1960 - this lessened his output in that year. 3) It's a nice, round number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Vinyl -- Do you know/have you heard anything about Cleveland being able to get around on the instrument with such incredible facility because, in part, he played a so-called "pea shooter" trombone (the phrase is Gunther Schuller's, I believe. I assume that would be a smaller than standard instrument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 (edited) Pea-shooter is a pretty generic term for a small bore horn. Trombone bore size has increased over the years. For example, symphony players now use around .547" (Bach Stradivarius 42) while most jazz lead players use smaller - maybe .509" (King 3B) - there are exceptions, though (John Mosca plays lead on a Conn 78H at .522"). I would be surprised to learn that Cleveland used anything really out of the ordinary for the day. If no one knows his particular model preference, I can try to find out. I recall that there is a lot of good info in the book by Sam Burtis, The American Trombone, I wish I could check but my copy is out on loan. Mike Next best thing - here is Sam's info online: http://www.trombone.org/articles/library/nyletters1.asp Edited February 25, 2005 by Michael Fitzgerald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Hi I have a copy of "The Subject is Jazz" broadcast. Details: THE SUBJECT IS JAZZ Broadcast on PBS, Spring, 1958 Billy Taylor (p, leader); Tony Scott (cl); Doc Severinsen (tp); Jimmy Cleveland (tb); Mundell Lowe (g); unknown (b); Osie Johnson (d) Tea for Two Interview Stompin' at the Savoy Interview Three Blind Mice Interview Whispering/Groovin' High Its' a Grand Night for Swinging hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 What school are you going to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinylexamination Posted February 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Do you know/have you heard anything about Cleveland being able to get around on the instrument with such incredible facility because, in part, he played a so-called "pea shooter" trombone Pea-shooters don't help unless you have something to back it up. It seems to me in the pictures I've seen of him that he played medium-sized horns. One looks like a King 3B, and the others like some sort of Conn. I also read that Benny Powell lent him a Conn 88H for a while, which is quite a large horn. I think Cleveland just had great control of his tounging and flexibility. I have a copy of "The Subject is Jazz" broadcast. Thanks for the info! Do you happen to know the name of this particular episode? Each of the episodes had a seperate subject that they dealt with. What school are you going to? University of Miami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 That's the one titled "Performance" - see here: http://www.tonyscott.it/nbc.htm Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 (edited) Pea-shooter is a pretty generic term for a small bore horn. Trombone bore size has increased over the years. For example, symphony players now use around .547" (Bach Stradivarius 42) while most jazz lead players use smaller - maybe .509" (King 3B) - there are exceptions, though (John Mosca plays lead on a Conn 78H at .522"). I would be surprised to learn that Cleveland used anything really out of the ordinary for the day. If no one knows his particular model preference, I can try to find out. Actually I would add that bore size for lead players is frequently even smaller-.492 is often used and .500 is even more common (the King 3B is actually .508). There is a trend to play larger bore horns (Steve Turre, Robin Eubanks, Slide Hampton). The bore of these horns is in the .547 range, which is a considered a "large-bore" tenor trombone and is usually favored by orchestral players. There are still many jazz players who play the smaller .500 range horns, however (my personal preference ). There are advantages to playing the smaller bore- it is for the most part more facile (making it easier to get around and play faster and more angular lines) since its optimum range is in the area of the overtone series where the partials are closer to one another. The larger bore tends to have a bigger (i.e. darker, rounder) sound and can access the lower register more readily. These are generalizations and there are always exceptions- I wouldn't say that a smaller bore horn automatically affords the player a higher range (this is after hearing Slide tear it up on a BIG axe!). I do think if you "hear" a dark sound, you will get a dark sound regardless of equipment. I performed at a trombone convention in 1982 or so and one of the guests was Jimmy Cleveland (Wayne Andre was another). I volunteered to take Jimmy to dinner and had a great conversation- at that time he hadn't been playing a lot and was not quite up to his usual spectacular level, but he sounded great and it was a thrill to meet him. I don't remember what horn he was playing at that time. Jimmy's playing really knocked me out from the first time I heard him. I'm glad to see some renewed interest. I want to read your dissertation when it's all done, VE! I would be interested to hear what *slide_advantage* might add to this discussion. Edited February 25, 2005 by Free For All Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 I love Cleveland's playing - like Jimmy Knepper, though in a much different way, he managed to translate the bebop approach without sacrificing the rich sound of the horn - and he never shot anybody, which is an added bonus. As I recall he was also one of Gil Evans's favorites (somewhere there's an excellent Cadence interview with Cleveland that is a must-read) - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 - and he never shot anybody, which is an added bonus. Oh man, that's cold! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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