David Murray

[marcello]

that is what interested me-because it could be true but also someone could have owned the record previously and thought that bobo shaw looked like a junkie on the front (he has those cheesy short braid kind of things) and wrote it for fun. i dunno...where did i buy it? princeton record exchange? academy records? this is weird...i can't remember.

Here he is:

I liked him. Kicked the shit out of the drums and almost off the stage. I still have one of the Human Arts Ensemble's self produced LPs.

George Braith?... that makes some sense because I know that he did some giging with Murray, or vice versa.

A lot of heated reasoning here about Murray. I can relate it to the difference between a jam band and say musicians like Jarrett's trio, who jam on a all together different level of musicianship.

Each to his own.

Edited May 3, 2007 by marcello

[JSngry]

Whenever I hear a "Coltrane-linked saxophonist" say that somebody can't "play at all", it inevitably means one of two things - that the player really can't play at all, or that the player is not somebody who plays with/from a conventional theoretical basis that has been more or less "mastered".

"Coltrane-linked saxophonists" far too often have this view of music as something that there's only one way to approach, that way being an exhaustive study/interenalization of chords, scales, progressions, etc. In short, theory. To them, the theory is the gateway to the music, and if you don't know all that stuff inside & out before moving on (or not), then you can't "play at all".

That's a notion with which I fundamentally disagree as much as I fundamentally agree. If your worldview is such that you want to make music that "needs" those things in order to speak, then yeah, you better learn it and learn it well. But that's not the only worldview in which valid, absorbing, even "essential" music can be made. Far from it. Even then, though, there needs to be a sense of self-possession relative to the music, that you are doing whatever it is you're doing with some sense of control at some level. And Murray has always had that, even when the results were pretty frantic.

To say that Murray can't "play at all" is absurd. To say that he began as a player with much "homework" left undone isn't. But he's done a great deal of that work, and now his "shortcomings" and/or "strengths" are more better evaluated subjectively than objectively.

The most humorous reaction to Murray's playing I've hever heard was from a "Coltrane-linked saxophonist" who said that Murray "couldn't play" because his shit "didn't make any sense". When I pointed out to him the technical intricacy of Murray's "nonsense", and that you couldn't execute like that w/o a lot of practicing, this cat just went off about how it doesn't matter at all if he'd practiced or not, he just couldn't play, period. Meaning, of course, that the possibility of personal choice as to how music "should" be played doesn't exist, that there's only one set of "rules", and that you either follow them or else you ain't "playing". That is utter and total bullshit. Murray used to be "funny" about changes sometimes, but he was never like that about the saxophone. To me, that matters.

95% (guestimated) of the "Coltrane-linked saxophonists" (hell, let's not limit it to just saxophonists...) that I know/know of are masterful "players" with next to nothing really personal to say. I think they get into this "if you can't do this, then you can't play" trip as a hedge (subconscious or otherwise) against having to confront that. I'm anything but a big "David Murray Fan", but if I have to choose between him & some guy really "exploring" the possibilities inherent in the ChromoMixiaLydiPhononic Multi-Diminugmented scale, hey, if I don't leave both of 'em behind (which these days I most likely will), I'll take Murray. Because at least Murray's music is going to have some conveyance of life outside the practice rooms.

.o.k...my 'coltrane-linked' saxophonist is George Braith...

Braith is far more than one of "those" cats.

I think he's overstating the case about Murray, but that might be a generational thing. I've heard from an impeccable source that Lou Donaldson said that Wayne Shorter "never could play changes". We all know that's bullshit of the highest degree, but oh well.

Guys like Braith & Donaldson come from a time when the "rules" were black & white, the parameters were pretty narrow based on what the collective ""world view" was, and so were the accepted deviations. It ain't like that now, and hasn't been for quite a while. Love'em both (especially George), but for what they do, not for their dogmas, even if it's those dogmas that makes them do what they do how they do it.

[Larry Kart]

As someone who doesn't play at all, can someone spell out for me just what a professional musician might actually mean (whether you agree with him or not) when he says that someone like Murray can't play at all. I can't fathom what one can possibly mean by this. It obviously has more to do with just owning a sax, blowing into it, and making sounds...

They mean that his note choice is not grounded in conventional theory. And sometimes they're right, and sometimes I really do think that Murray skates (or has skated in the past) in that regard. It's one thing to go outside the changes with direction, it's another thing entirely to flat out play wrong notes.

They also mean that he's worked up a set of easily-contrived "devices" that he uses in lieu of conventional saxophone technique. And again, sometimes they've been right. But he's refined and expanded a lot of those devices to the point where I think that they can now be considered a legitimate personal vocabulary.

They also mean that his swing is funny. And that's something that still bugs me about him. He can swing his rapid-fire shit like a mofo, but his eighth notes still sound funny to me. And I don't know if he's yet to discover that between the eight & thirty-second notes lie the sixteenth note... But still, he does what he does and I have to think that his sense of swing is his own. If he really wanted it to be otherwise, it would be by now.

They also mean that his time is funny sometimes. And sometimes it is. Sometimes there's a sense of rushing (both within the line & in terms of the structure) in his playing that I find pretty distasteful. But only sometimes.

So yeah, the guy has not been without flaws. And as Larry Kart somewhat noted a while back, if you want to hear this style tenor really played really right, check out Ed Wilkerson & get on with it. But to say that Murray just flat out can't play is so much inbred anality, as is the "white critic's darling" which almost always translates as "Gee, I put in hours learning to play this instrument correctly and nobody cares."

Well hey there, Mister Phil Woods In Waiting, big fucking shit. Try using that "skill" for an end other than itself and we'll share a tear. Until then, go get a gig where people who don't know any different think you're a hero who's gotten screwed over by the world.

Opportunities abound!

You can't buy the kind of smarts Mr. Sangrey has.

Sometime I'm going to carve a Sangrey "collected works" out of what he's posted on Organissimo, plus some stuff of his from the BNBB that I hope I've squirreled away, and see if it can't be preserved and disseminated in some form.

[Guy Berger]

Amen Larry, Jim's most recent posts on this thread are superb.

Guy

[robertoart]

Boy did this thread take off.

Love this board.

[BFrank]

If Murray "can't play at all", how on earth did he get McCoy Tyner, Elvin Jones & Fred Hopkins to record "Special Quartet" with him? After all, two of those guys are "Coltrane-linked".

I can't fathom THAT.

[Guest donald petersen]

have you ever heard the mccoy tyner album with phylis hyman???

[robertoart]

B&D, S&M: who can choose, but let me say this-- once upon a time in a New York City, or rather Manhattan, rather (vastly even) different than the one of today, the elder don (he was elder then too tho' not yet rockin' the AARP like he is today) saw the Maury Big Band down at the Knitting Factory a # of times... Butch Morris was the conductor & Captain Spaulding was in the group. he was... OK at best. (i've never been a fan but hoped for more.) Fred Hopkins, however... woo-fuckin-wee! Fred Hopkins!!

most of the times I saw these dudes (& dudettes-- did Butch's daughter sing or even rap once? maybe), Officer Murray wasn't there-- he was not missed & yet... without his name, this gig wouldn't have gone down so... what to do, what to do?

i took a piss next to Fred Hopkins,

edc

did you look then give him your phone number?

[BFrank]

have you ever heard the mccoy tyner album with phylis hyman???

Were Elvin & Fred Hopkins on that album, too?

[David Ayers]

You can't buy the kind of smarts Mr. Sangrey has.

Sometime I'm going to carve a Sangrey "collected works" out of what he's posted on Organissimo, plus some stuff of his from the BNBB that I hope I've squirreled away, and see if it can't be preserved and disseminated in some form.

Don't flatter him! I told Jim about five years ago to write book and not waste it all on you guys but his preferred mode is beers-on-the-porch, or its internet equivalent...

Maybe you should be his Boswell? We'd have to somewhow retrieve the entire BNBB which was lost in the sacking of Norajonestown.

[robertoart]

You can't buy the kind of smarts Mr. Sangrey has.

Sometime I'm going to carve a Sangrey "collected works" out of what he's posted on Organissimo, plus some stuff of his from the BNBB that I hope I've squirreled away, and see if it can't be preserved and disseminated in some form.

Don't flatter him! I told Jim about five years ago to write book and not waste it all on you guys but his preferred mode is beers-on-the-porch, or its internet equivalent...

Maybe you should be his Boswell? We'd have to somewhow retrieve the entire BNBB which was lost in the sacking of Norajonestown.

Slacker

[Hot Ptah]

I appreciate Mr. Sangrey's analysis of David Murray's playing very much. It is difficult to get a concise, clearly worded explanation of anything in jazz which contains credible musical analysis. Too often the discussion of a particular musician is based on either subjective likes or dislikes, or on something more objective but not explained, or not explained well.

I am not referring to this board in particular, but to all jazz writing and discussion since 1920.

This board, if nothing else, departs from the conventional wisdom about musicians. It is thought provoking to read views which differ from the jazz media cliches about artists. Sometimes a new orthodoxy seems to be nearly building about a particular musician, based on the strong views of a limited number of highly credible posters here, but the new orthodoxy never seems to get set in concrete, because the limited number of credible posters allow for contrary discussion without antagonism or defensiveness. All good.

[six string]

I just picked up a copy of The Healers on Black Saint mainly because I'm a big Randy Weston fan. Then I find this thread on David Murray. It's been quite interesting reading everyone's comments on DM. I don't really know his music very well. I only own a few of his albums, but when I saw this record in minty condition, I couldn't pass it up. It'll be more interesting to listen to it now that I've read all this stuff, good and bad, about the man.

[shrugs]

It was like hearing Mingus, when I heard Ming.

Concise arrangements. Played by excellent musicians who were obviously into what their leader was laying down. And wouldn;t play anything but their best,

And the trio sessions with Hopkins and McCall......

Or the duets with Hicks on DIW.

"Casual Brilliance"

[David Ayers]

Hey shrugs, nice to see you. I haven't been reading the board that thoroughly the last x months so I hadn't spotted you were back.

Edited May 5, 2007 by David Ayers

[six string]

After listening to The Healer, I am ready to return it for a store credit. It sounds like an amateur trying to play outside. Lots of whistling, clicking, honking that sometimes passes for ideas or inspiration. Randy Weston is more of an accompaniest and not an equal partner in this project. In Blue Moses, David plays some melodic passages in a slightly different key than Randy that I guess is supposed to pass for edgy/avant garde. The only problem is that those melodic passages are so elementary that they bored the crap out of me. Why Randy didn't get more solo space, I don't know, but Murray didn't do much in the way of holding my attention. It's not like I don't like him either. I have Special Edition and Ballads under his own name and a Bobby Battle Quartet album on Mapleshade that I like a lot. I own a lot of Ornette Coleman, John Tchicai, Cecil Taylor, etc. so it's not like I'm unfamiliar with outside music. One of the most disappointing music purchases in a long time.

[RDK]

Haven't grabbed The Healer from emusic yet, but I really like Murray's duo session with Dave Burrell.

[Shannon Dickey]

I saw Murray at the MT. Vernon Country club about a decade a go.

It was not pleasant!!! The rhythm section was a quick, pick up, the guy's were from Wyoming

and did not have CLUE!!

murray was clearly pissed! He pulled a Miles, and after his solo's, retreated into the club's kitchen! (I don't blame him).

I wish I had a camera with me, 'cuz there were A table of rich old ladies who had there fingers in thier

ears!! So funny!!

---H.B.

[kh1958]

Haven't grabbed The Healer from emusic yet, but I really like Murray's duo session with Dave Burrell.

The Healer is a nice recording, I like it.

There's another fine duet with Jon Jang.

[JohnS]

I've seen Murray on most of his UK visits (trio, quartet, quintet, octet, gokwa, big bands). Musically he's always been very impressive and generally seems to want to play. There was only one occasion when he seemed less than happy - that was at a festival, notorious for its short sets, with his all star 'Ellington' big band. Stunning music that was over almost as soon as it began. Maybe it was the just short set, who knows, but he was definitely less than happy on that occasion.

[AndrewHill]

I'm still undecided about Murray. Its a hit or miss with me. I like Flowers for Albert quite a bit, but don't really care for his more mainstream projects, like Black and Blue. Ironically, though, I do like the Grateful Dead Dark Star recording he did for Astor House. Other than that, I own the Murray/Newton DIW which is nice enough, and Ming's Samba which is a lot like Black and Blue. I basically wouldn't miss these cd's, except maybe for Flowers. I guess that's the kind of impact he's had on me.

[Hot Ptah]

Murray's recorded output is massive, and like some other artists with a massive recorded output, some of his albums are better than others. He has recorded in a lot of different contexts and with a lot of different people, and some of these projects have worked better than others.

I like his playing, find it interesting, but never thought I was listening to the greatest thing in the history of mankind. But then again, there are very few artists or albums which are the greatest things in the history of mankind. I listen to all kinds of music which falls short of that standard.

[JohnS]

The new cd 'Sacred Ground' is out on 26 June and available for pre-order from CD universe.

[relyles]

The new cd 'Sacred Ground' is out on 26 June and available for pre-order from CD universe.

Who is playing with him?

[Hot Ptah]

I saw Murray at the MT. Vernon Country club about a decade a go.

It was not pleasant!!! The rhythm section was a quick, pick up, the guy's were from Wyoming

and did not have CLUE!!

murray was clearly pissed! He pulled a Miles, and after his solo's, retreated into the club's kitchen! (I don't blame him).

I wish I had a camera with me, 'cuz there were A table of rich old ladies who had there fingers in thier

ears!! So funny!!

---H.B.

I'm not so sure that the rhythm section was a quick pick up. I saw Murray live about the same time at the Tuba Club in Kansas City, and the same piano trio from Wyoming was his backup. They actually played pretty well together, I thought. It was not as inspiring a backup as when I saw Murray with John Hicks and Andrew Cyrille, but it was O.K. Mostly the Wyoming guys provided a solid base for Murray to blow over, which he did with intensity and a decent flow of ideas.

Murray was not upset by the Wyoming piano trio backup. He sat on the bar stool right next to me between sets, drinking and talking pleasantly to people who came up.

That same Wyoming piano trio came to Kansas City several times that year, to provide backing for Bobby Hutcherson, Ray Anderson and other national artists, at the City Light Jazz Club. I always wondered why. They were certainly capable, but not more distinctive than Kansas City rhythm sections--if the national artist was not going to bring a backup band, why fly people in from Wyoming?